DooDoot wrote: ↑Sat Jun 15, 2019 2:11 am
Dinsdale wrote: ↑Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:56 am
In SN5.10 "being" refer to a convention or attachment, whereas in SN12.2 "beings" refers to living organisms (animals) which experience birth, ageing and death.
Sorry but SN 5.10 and SN 23.2 provide explicit definitions where as your personal interpretation of SN 12.2 is merely that; just your imagination.
You seem to be missing the following points:
1. D.O. is about the culmination of sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief & despair.
2. For sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief & despair to occur; aging & death must occur. People grieve over loss, change, aging & death. They do not grieve when there is no sense of personal loss.
3. For aging & death to generate sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief & despair, there must be "
acquisition" connected with the aging & death (MN 26; SN 12.66). The loss must be "personal".
As he explores he understands thus: ‘The many diverse kinds of suffering that arise in the world headed by aging-and-death: this suffering has acquisition as its source, acquisition as its origin; it is born and produced from acquisition. When there is acquisition, aging-and-death comes to be; when there is no acquisition, aging-and-death does not come to be.’ SN 12.66 https://suttacentral.net/sn12.66/en/bodhi
4. As I said, when change & destruction occur to non-personal things (such as a tree in a forest falling down or a cloud evaporating), there is no sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief & despair.
5. For sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief & despair to occur, there must be something "personal" or "acquired" that ages & death. While the aggregates certainly change, alter, decay & are destroyed, the idea of "death" applies to the idea of a "person" that "dies". For example, SN 22.85 does not say Arahants "die". SN 22.85 says the aggregates of an Arahant are destroyed. SN 22.85 says to believe an Arahant "dies" is wrong view.
"Then, friend Yamaka, how would you answer if you are thus asked: A monk, a worthy one, with no more mental effluents: what is he on the break-up of the body, after death?"
"Thus asked, I would answer, 'Form is inconstant... Feeling... Perception... Fabrications... Consciousness is inconstant. That which is inconstant is unsatisfactory. That which is unsatisfactory has ceased and gone to its end."
"Very good, my friend Yamaka. Very good.
SN 22.85 https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
6. Thus, when your wife's hair starts to grey & her skin starts to wrinkle, you suffer. You suffer because your lust for your wife changes & is under threat. While the skin certainly wrinkles & the hair certainly greys, what is "aging" is the acquisition you call "my wife". The idea of "my wife" was a "becoming". When you were 5 years old, you did not have "a wife". You were not yet "born" as "a husband". But when you "became" a "husband" via marriage and were "born" with the identity of "a husband", because of this becoming & birth, an "aging" happens to your "wife" when her skins wrinkles & her hair becomes grey that causes you to suffer. MN 26 says:
And what may be said to be subject to birth? Spouses & children are subject to birth. Men & women slaves... goats & sheep... fowl & pigs... elephants, cattle, horses, & mares... gold & silver are subject to birth. Subject to birth are these acquisitions, and one who is tied to them, infatuated with them, who has totally fallen for them, being subject to birth, seeks what is likewise subject to birth.
"And what may be said to be subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement? Spouses & children... men & women slaves... goats & sheep... fowl & pigs... elephants, cattle, horses, & mares... gold & silver are subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement. Subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement are these acquisitions, and one who is tied to them, infatuated with them, who has totally fallen for them, being subject to birth, seeks what is likewise subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement. This is ignoble search.
MN 26
Note: The above does not refute reincarnation. Reincarnation in hell may still occur due to bad kamma but it may not occur due to dependent origination