the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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cappuccino
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by cappuccino » Sat Jun 15, 2019 2:45 am

DooDoot wrote:
cappuccino wrote:From Wikipedia
Yes... "connotation" or "speculation".
John 3:20

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by retrofuturist » Sat Jun 15, 2019 2:46 am

Greetings,
cappuccino wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 2:33 am
DooDoot wrote: In fact, there appears to be no word in the Pali that literally means "rebirth".
Saṃsāra is a Sanskrit word that means "wandering" … In short, it is the cycle of death and rebirth. Saṃsāra is sometimes referred to with terms or phrases such as transmigration, karmic cycle, reincarnation, and "cycle of aimless drifting, wandering or mundane existence"
From Wikipedia
Alternatively...

sam = (together) with
sāra - essence

Thus, samsāra is the deluded state of thinking that things we put together (i.e. fabricate, sankhara) have "essence", thus, that they exist.

Thus, the end of paticcasamuppada (dependent arising), is the end of samsāra (regarding put-together things as having essence).

See SN 12.15 below, for a detailed account of how such delusion is abandoned.
Staying near Sāvatthī … Then Ven. Kaccāna Gotta approached the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: “Lord, ‘Right view, right view,’ it is said. To what extent is there right view?”

“By & large, Kaccāna, this world1 is supported by [takes as its object] a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination2 of the world as it has come to be with right discernment, ‘non-existence’ with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it has come to be with right discernment, ‘existence’ with reference to the world does not occur to one.3

“By & large, Kaccāna, this world is in bondage to attachments, clingings [sustenances], & biases. But one such as this does not get involved with or cling to these attachments, clingings, fixations of awareness, biases, or obsessions; nor is he resolved on ‘my self.’ He has no uncertainty or doubt that mere stress, when arising, is arising; stress, when passing away, is passing away.4 In this, his knowledge is independent of others. It’s to this extent, Kaccāna, that there is right view.

“‘Everything exists’: That is one extreme. ‘Everything doesn’t exist’: That is a second extreme.5 Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathāgata teaches the Dhamma via the middle: From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications.

From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness.

From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form.

From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media.

From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact.

From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling.

From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving.

From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance.

From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming.

From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth.

From birth as a requisite condition, then aging-&-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

“Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging-&-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering.”
Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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cappuccino
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by cappuccino » Sat Jun 15, 2019 2:54 am

From birth as a requisite condition, then aging-&-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

From the cessation of birth, then aging-&-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by mikenz66 » Sat Jun 15, 2019 3:27 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 2:23 am
Greetings Mike,

Yeah, I'm not really a big fan of Gombrich's theory personally, because it's a pretty loose correlation (to say the least), and any description of anything invariably talks about how it comes to be. You could just as easily map it onto a Christian creation story.

The fact these "creation stories" have a certain similarity to them (from nothing there was a singularity, but that singularity was further proliferated, became corrupted and people lost their way), simply reflects that relationship... even the one in the suttas about the origins of the world shares such a flavour.
Well, it's not just Gombrich's idea, though he is, of course, one of the most visible advocates of understanding the background in which the discourses were delivered.

For me, it's a very useful information. It particularly helped me understand Bhikkhu Nananada's exposition of nama-rupa (itself being an existing term from the myth).

The Commentators seem to overlook much of this background. We are lucky to be in a better position.

Suttas have a variety of dimensions. See here: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=34467 where I linked to a talk where Bhikkhu Sujato discusses different ways of interpreting suttas (Literal, Moral, Metaphorical, and Transcendental).
He then discusses the the Ant Hill sutta (MN 23), which to me seemed entirely metaphorical.
However, it gains some additional dimension when it is pointed out that there is actually some literal meaning there: worshipping snakes (one of the meaning of naga) in ant hills turns out to be a wide-spread practice in India. Someone familiar with that practice will have a rather different reaction to the discourse than my initial reading...

Similarly, kamma/karma is a pre-existing concept:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karma#Early_development
The Vedic Sanskrit word kárman- (nominative kárma) means "work" or "deed",[41] often used in the context of Srauta rituals.[42] In the Rigveda, the word occurs some 40 times.[41] In Satapatha Brahmana 1.7.1.5, sacrifice is declared as the "greatest" of works; Satapatha Brahmana 10.1.4.1 associates the potential of becoming immortal (amara) with the karma of the agnicayana sacrifice.[41]
Many of those hearing the Buddha would presumably be familiar with this terminology.

:heart:
Mike

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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr » Sat Jun 15, 2019 4:45 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 2:37 am
cappuccino wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 2:33 am
connotation .... From Wikipedia
Yes... "connotation" or "speculation". But suttas such as SN 22.99 appears to literally say "samsara" is "circling" or "cycling" around the same set of aggregates.

"Just as a dog, tied by a leash to a post or stake, keeps running around and circling around that very post or stake; in the same way, an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person — who has no regard for noble ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard for people of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma — assumes form to be the self, or the self as possessing form, or form as in the self, or the self as in form.

"He assumes feeling to be the self...

"He assumes perception to be the self...

"He assumes (mental) fabrications to be the self...

"He assumes consciousness to be the self, or the self as possessing consciousness, or consciousness as in the self, or the self as in consciousness.

"He keeps running around and circling around that very form... that very feeling... that very perception... those very fabrications... that very consciousness. He is not set loose from form, not set loose from feeling... from perception... from fabrications... not set loose from consciousness. He is not set loose from birth, aging, & death; from sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs. He is not set loose, I tell you, from suffering & stress.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

But nothing in that is against the view that such a process carries on past physical death, no?

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr » Sat Jun 15, 2019 4:58 am

I think it’s also worth noting that materialism and scepticism were known during the Buddha’s time and each had their own followers. We know that materialism was adopted by a fair few Indians due to the ferocity of the attacks against Carvaka. If the Buddha wanted to teach the Dhamma without rebirth and kamma post physical death he could have done so, but he didn’t. I guess the question is, why? Was it a mere useful view? Was it a good approximation that missed the mark slightly? Was it just pandering to village folk who were too superstitious? The reason why he taught it can help us, I think, discover what he meant by it.

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by DooDoot » Sat Jun 15, 2019 5:11 am

Ceisiwr wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 4:45 am
But nothing in that is against the view that such a process carries on past physical death, no?
Well, the sutta quote about 'here-&-now samsara' does not appear to be speculation but your suggestion above appears to be speculation.
cappuccino wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 2:54 am
From birth as a requisite condition, then aging-&-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

From the cessation of birth, then aging-&-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering.
Indeed. The above appears to show "aging-&-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair" are one phenomena. Since sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress & despair are definitely something "mental" then its seems "aging-&-death" is also something "mental" (rather than "physical"). :geek:
And what are dependently co-arisen phenomena? Aging & death are dependently co-arisen phenomena: inconstant, compounded, dependently co-arisen, subject to ending, subject to passing away, subject to fading, subject to cessation.

SN 12.20
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr » Sat Jun 15, 2019 5:32 am

DooDoot

No, and I don’t think the Buddha speculated either. He had direct knowledge which, as far as I can tell, included endless paṭiccasamuppāda unless there is Nibbana.

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by DooDoot » Sat Jun 15, 2019 6:23 am

Direct knowledge is not something difficult; where jati is simply the production of the view of "beings" from the manifestation of various aggregates acquired via the senses bases, both internally & externally.

Regardless, your aspersions about the Buddha's direct knowledge are more speculations. Sorry, but your aspersions about the Buddha does not support your point of view.

If I appear harsh or arrogant towards you, this harshness & arrogance are "aggregates". From the "manifestation" of such aggregates, you create views about the "personhood" of DooDoot, particularly compared to other Buddhists. You might think:

1. Doot is a harsh, angry, rude & arrogant Buddhist.

2. The above is the "production" of "a being" ("evil Doot") within the categorises of "beings" ("Buddhists"), as described in SN 12.2.
“And what, bhikkhus, is birth? The birth of the various beings into the various orders of beings, their being born, entering, production, the manifestation of the aggregates, the obtaining of the sense bases. This is called birth

Yā tesaṃ tesaṃ sattānaṃ tamhi tamhi sattanikāye jāti sañjāti okkanti abhinibbatti khandhānaṃ pātubhāvo āyatanānaṃ paṭilābho.
Last edited by DooDoot on Sat Jun 15, 2019 6:31 am, edited 2 times in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr » Sat Jun 15, 2019 6:28 am

Are you declaring direct knowledge of paṭiccasamuppāda? It seems that the path is difficult and long, although that could just be true for me.

Why would the Buddha stress that paṭiccasamuppāda occurs through incalculable lengths of time and why would he confirm the views of village folk and others when they talk about kamma having effects past physical death? If he knew that within his Dhamma no such concept was valid then he would have told them, yet he affirmed their view and praised it. Why?

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by DooDoot » Sat Jun 15, 2019 6:30 am

Ceisiwr wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 6:28 am
Are you declaring direct knowledge of paṭiccasamuppāda? It seems that the path is difficult and long, although that could just be true for me.
Again, illogical contradictory statement saying:

1. I cannot have direct knowledge of paṭiccasamuppāda.

2. Yet you know what paṭiccasamuppāda is.

:coffee:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr » Sat Jun 15, 2019 6:31 am

DooDoot


I thank you for your courtesy but you have nothing to fear. I rarely get offended.

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by cappuccino » Sat Jun 15, 2019 6:32 am

rebirth is right view

if you insist on arguing against rebirth, then you merely undermine right view

both for yourself and for others

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr » Sat Jun 15, 2019 6:33 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 6:30 am
Ceisiwr wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 6:28 am
Are you declaring direct knowledge of paṭiccasamuppāda? It seems that the path is difficult and long, although that could just be true for me.
Again, illogical contradictory statement saying:

1. I cannot have direct knowledge of paṭiccasamuppāda.

2. Yet you know what paṭiccasamuppāda is.

:coffee:

I didn’t say you can’t have direct knowledge of it.

I understand the idea I just don’t see it and so I have no direct knowledge of it, hence why faith is important for folks like me.

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by DooDoot » Sat Jun 15, 2019 6:36 am

Ceisiwr wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 6:31 am
I thank you for your courtesy but you have nothing to fear. I rarely get offended.
I am not being courteous to you. I am pointing out the Dependent Origination possibly currently arising in your mind. Your mind is probably producing (abhinibbatti) views of beings (sattānaṃ) within categories of beings (sattanikāye) from the appearance of aggregates (khandhānaṃ pātubhāvo) as an acquisition of sense experience (āyatanānaṃ paṭilābho). These views are entering (okkanti) and solidified/completed (sañjāti) to give birth (jāti) to solid delusions of personhood or "beings".

It appears written: "I thank you for your courtesy but you have nothing to fear. I rarely get offended" as though these "I" & "you" are real things. :roll:

Yā tesaṃ tesaṃ sattānaṃ tamhi tamhi sattanikāye jāti sañjāti okkanti abhinibbatti khandhānaṃ pātubhāvo āyatanānaṃ paṭilābho.

Like Mara:
Why now do you assume 'a being'?
Mara, have you grasped a view?
This is a heap of sheer constructions:
Here no being is found.

Just as, with an assemblage of parts,
The word 'chariot' is used,
So, when the aggregates are present,
There's the convention 'a being.'

It's only suffering that comes to be,
Suffering that stands and falls away.
Nothing but suffering comes to be,
Nothing but suffering ceases.

SN 5.10
Last edited by DooDoot on Sat Jun 15, 2019 6:41 am, edited 2 times in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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