the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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cappuccino
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by cappuccino » Sun May 19, 2019 12:06 am

Although the Buddha never used any word corresponding to "rebirth" in his teachings, he did describe birth as a process following on death again and again as long as the appropriate conditions are present. In other words, even though he didn't use the word "rebirth," his teachings on birth are teachings on repeated birth: how it happens, how it inherently involves suffering and stress, and how it can be brought to an end.
Mahatanhasankhaya Sutta
This sutta teaches how to understand the relationship of consciousness to rebirth in a way that helps put an end to rebirth.

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DooDoot
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by DooDoot » Sun May 19, 2019 3:35 am

cappuccino wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 11:55 pm
bhava
Bhava is an "asava". There are these three asava: kāmāsavo, bhavāsavo, avijjāsavo.
So neva taṃ abhisaṅkharoti, na abhisañcetayati bhavāya vā vibhavāya vā. So anabhisaṅkharonto anabhisañcetayanto bhavāya vā vibhavāya vā na kiñci loke upādiyati,

One neither fabricates nor mentally fashions for the sake of becoming or un-becoming. This being the case, one does not cling to anything in the world.

MN 140
Last edited by DooDoot on Sun May 19, 2019 3:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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cappuccino
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by cappuccino » Sun May 19, 2019 3:44 am

everything that can be said has been said

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DooDoot
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by DooDoot » Sun May 19, 2019 3:47 am

cappuccino wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 3:44 am
everything that can be said has been said
Everything = nothing

Upapajjati =/= reincarnation

Samsara =/= reincarnation

Bhava =/= reincarnation
If anyone says, ‘the eye is self,’ that is not reincarnation.

‘Cakkhu attā’ti yo vadeyya taṃ na upapajjati.

MN 148
:roll:
Last edited by DooDoot on Sun May 19, 2019 3:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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cappuccino
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by cappuccino » Sun May 19, 2019 3:48 am

perhaps "you're missing the forest for the trees"
Last edited by cappuccino on Sun May 19, 2019 3:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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DooDoot
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by DooDoot » Sun May 19, 2019 3:56 am

cappuccino wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 12:06 am
Although the Buddha never used any word corresponding to "rebirth" in his teachings, he did describe birth as a process following on death again and again as long as the appropriate conditions are present. In other words, even though he didn't use the word "rebirth," his teachings on birth are teachings on repeated birth: how it happens, how it inherently involves suffering and stress, and how it can be brought to an end.
The above appears to assume "birth" & "death" are physical. Also, the Buddha taught "death" follows "birth" rather than "birth" follows "death". :roll:
21. Heedfulness is the path to the Deathless. Heedlessness is the path to death. The heedful die not. The heedless are as if dead already.

Dhammapada
Then in that case, Angulimala, go to that woman and on arrival say to her, 'Sister, since I was born in the noble birth, I do not recall intentionally killing a living being. Through this truth may there be wellbeing for you, wellbeing for your fetus.'

MN 86
Last edited by DooDoot on Sun May 19, 2019 4:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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cappuccino
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by cappuccino » Sun May 19, 2019 4:00 am

in terms of Samsara we're speaking of a serious problem

which would be trivial if we live but once

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DooDoot
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by DooDoot » Sun May 19, 2019 4:04 am

cappuccino wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 4:00 am
in terms of Samsara we're speaking of a serious problem
Samsara, i.e, repeatedly attaching to the aggregates as 'self', is a very serious problem. In the 1st noble truth, the Buddha summarised all dukkha as attaching to the aggregates as 'self'. The Buddha said this suffering is to be comprehended.
cappuccino wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 4:00 am
which would be trivial if we live but once
Pointless talking about future lives when the suffering of continually attaching to the aggregates as 'self' has not been comprehended in this life.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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cappuccino
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by cappuccino » Sun May 19, 2019 4:18 am

you should come back to the issue of rebirth another time

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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr » Sun May 19, 2019 12:47 pm

DooDoot

Are you claiming to have no craving (tanha), like an Arahant; or claiming to have no wishes for future sensual pleasures; like a Non-Returner? :shrug:

Nope, I just know none of those things are the reason why I came to have confidence in rebirth

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Aloka
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Aloka » Sun May 19, 2019 7:33 pm

cappuccino wrote:
which would be trivial if we live but once
DooDoot wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 4:04 am

Pointless talking about future lives when the suffering of continually attaching to the aggregates as 'self' has not been comprehended in this life.
Indeed.

"This is how he attends inappropriately: 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past? Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?' Or else he is inwardly perplexed about the immediate present: 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?'

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
:anjali:

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cappuccino
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by cappuccino » Wed May 22, 2019 8:01 pm

This is how he attends inappropriately: 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past?
that's about identity, rebirth is appropriate

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Aloka
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Aloka » Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:29 pm

Oops, deleted because I was repeating a quote I made earlier in the topic!
Last edited by Aloka on Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr » Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:35 pm

Aloka wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:29 pm
Excerpt from the transcript of a talk by Ajahn Amaro:

In Buddhist tradition, and in a more mythological expression, enlightenment is also called ‘the ending of the cycle of birth and death’ – this makes reference to rebirth as well as to the diminishing and ending of rebirth. I think it’s helpful here to say that one of the things that attracted me and many other people towards the Buddha’s teachings is its non-dogmatic nature. I am quite aware that many people don’t like the concepts of past lives, future lives and rebirth. That sort of terminology may send shudders through the system and that’s fair enough. I feel that even though the texts talk in terms like ‘ending the cycles of birth and death’, it is completely valid to think of that in terms of ‘psychological birth and death’.

What do I mean by that phrase? For example, you might be born into your current book project or your new experimental design. That is a birth. The mind takes hold of a particular venture, a possession, an identity, a personal relationship or a social role. We might say that we are born into the role of being a Dhamma teacher or into the role of being a professor, born into founding a particular project, and with that birth is also a delight.

The delight comes from the sense that everything is going well, there is the aspiration that beautiful and useful things might come forth from it. But there is also the death element; perhaps things don’t work so well, or you don’t get funded the next time, or you present your thesis and you get slammed by your professors. There is a bitterness that comes when you have invested in something and then have to see your aspirations die. That is birth and death. Buddhist language does not just refer to physical birth and death, it also refers to psychological birth and death.

My own teacher Ajahn Chah would use these terms when he talked about birth and death. He would talk about being born into a hope, being born into a building project, being born into the role of being a monk or a nun. So I feel it’s completely valid to think in terms of the freedom from birth and death as meaning freedom from being reborn into the entanglement and toxic identification that can come with taking hold of a project or a role or a position and so forth. ‘Freedom from birth and death’ therefore means a complete independence from addictive and compulsive attachments, as well as from self-centred attitudes.

https://forestsangha.org/teachings/book ... ge=English

:anjali:


For me both interpretations are true. One doesn’t negate the other.

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Dinsdale » Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:22 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 3:35 am
Bhava is an asava.... There are these three asava: kāmāsavo, bhavāsavo, avijjāsavo.
No, bhavasavo is an asava, the craving for becoming.

Clearly bhavasavo relates to bhava, but it does not define it.

It is consistent with the suttas to say that bhavasavo is "mental" while bhava is "physical".
Last edited by Dinsdale on Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:40 am, edited 2 times in total.
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