the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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kverty
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by kverty » Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:56 pm

Ok so I acknowledge that this may have been debated to the point of almost an discernible beginning, but bear with me 'cause I couldn't search the thread for this specific query.

So what I understand is that there are some buddhist who believe in moment-to-moment rebirth in this life only and consequently, either rejects or remain skeptic to the occurrence of life to life rebirth until such proofs could be verified, or at least hold the view of rebirth over several life-spans is not relevant to the practice and the ultimate goal.

What I'm alluding to is that the ultimate goal, nibbana, is in itself a metaphysical event that can't be objectively proven to exist since you can't measure something that is beyond all conditioned phenomena. So while buddhist practice can bring happiness here and now, until you acknowledge that some aspects of the teaching may never be proven objectively, the practice will only take you so far but not beyond. The notion of rebirth from life-to-life may not be integral to the teaching but I see it as a puzzle that simply can't be left out in the grand scheme of understanding the workings of the Dhamma, and to simply ignore such vital aspects until it can be objectively verified (which may never happen) is a huge obstacle in ones development.

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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:54 pm

the body and mind are constantly arising and ceasing. rebirth is easier to accept if you dont take these stressful processes as self
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rightviewftw
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Re: Bonjour

Post by rightviewftw » Sun May 06, 2018 8:56 pm

Layt wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 8:28 pm
do you think that it is possible that you are wrong about the reincarnation being impossible?

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Re: Bonjour

Post by Layt » Sun May 06, 2018 9:27 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 8:56 pm
Layt wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 8:28 pm
do you think that it is possible that you are wrong about the reincarnation being impossible?
Craving is literally just a bunch of hormones and electrical signals... if these things could alter the universe in order to create life, scientists would've discovered this phenomenom a long time ago. Well it doesn't make any sense to begin with anyway.

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rightviewftw
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Re: Bonjour

Post by rightviewftw » Sun May 06, 2018 9:31 pm

Layt wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 9:27 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 8:56 pm
Layt wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 8:28 pm
do you think that it is possible that you are wrong about the reincarnation being impossible?
Craving is literally just a bunch of hormones and electrical signals... if these things could alter the universe in order to create life, scientists would've discovered this phenomenom a long time ago. Well it doesn't make any sense to begin with anyway.
So you don't think that your conviction can turn out to be false?

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Re: Bonjour

Post by Layt » Sun May 06, 2018 9:36 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 9:31 pm
Layt wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 9:27 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 8:56 pm

do you think that it is possible that you are wrong about the reincarnation being impossible?
Craving is literally just a bunch of hormones and electrical signals... if these things could alter the universe in order to create life, scientists would've discovered this phenomenom a long time ago. Well it doesn't make any sense to begin with anyway.
So you don't think that your conviction can turn out to be false?
I do not hold any conviction, just knowledge provided by science.

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rightviewftw
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Re: Bonjour

Post by rightviewftw » Sun May 06, 2018 9:40 pm

Layt wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 9:36 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 9:31 pm
Layt wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 9:27 pm


Craving is literally just a bunch of hormones and electrical signals... if these things could alter the universe in order to create life, scientists would've discovered this phenomenom a long time ago. Well it doesn't make any sense to begin with anyway.
So you don't think that your conviction can turn out to be false?
I do not hold any conviction, just knowledge provided by science.
Well even if you arrive at conclusion that reincarnation is impossible, it cannot happen. That conclusion can turn out to be wrong. I have plenty of times solved equations and arrived at wrong answers by reason and deduction.
You having arrived at the conclusion that it is impossible, that is what you agree with having arrived at it by reason.
That is no better than a conviction. Also appealing to science is kind of funny, given that one of the biggest mysteries, no the biggest mystery in science is consciousness.

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Re: Bonjour

Post by Layt » Sun May 06, 2018 9:44 pm

No, logic never fails to solve a problem unless it's ethical.

You can't get false results in mathematics if you use the correct formula and if you don't mess up the calculation part.

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rightviewftw
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Re: Bonjour

Post by rightviewftw » Sun May 06, 2018 9:47 pm

Layt wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 9:44 pm
No, logic never fails to solve a problem unless it's ethical.

You can't get false results in mathematics if you use the correct formula and if you don't mess up the calculation part.
Well if science was perfect and had all the answers then there would be no room for scientific theory. Since there obviously are scientific theories then science is not perfect and does not have all the answers.. Yet you seem to have arrived at infallable conclusion regarding the origin of consciousness.

I am quite interested in these infallable scientific explainations to the origin of spacetime and consciousness because i do not know of any.

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Re: Bonjour

Post by Layt » Sun May 06, 2018 9:54 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 9:47 pm
Layt wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 9:44 pm
No, logic never fails to solve a problem unless it's ethical.

You can't get false results in mathematics if you use the correct formula and if you don't mess up the calculation part.
Well if science was perfect and had all the answers then there would be no room for scientific theory. Since there obviously are scientific theories then science is not perfect and does not have all the answers.. Yet you seem to have arrived at infallable conclusion regarding the origin of consciousness.
Like I said, craving is just hormones and electrical signals, you can't alter reality with that.

The only things that could turn out to be wrong nowadays are theories themselves (about light and gravity for exemple). You ain't gonna find out one day that fire is produced by copulating ants instead of combustion.

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rightviewftw
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Re: Bonjour

Post by rightviewftw » Sun May 06, 2018 9:57 pm

Layt wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 9:54 pm
craving is just hormones and electrical signals, you can't alter reality with that.
What is this reality that you are talking about? Because that statement assumes that you can explain what is reality and craving and being able to prove that craving does not "alter" reality. So if you are confident i will question you on what the heck you are talking about exactly.

Layt
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Re: Bonjour

Post by Layt » Sun May 06, 2018 10:10 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 9:57 pm
Layt wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 9:54 pm
Like I said, craving is just hormones and electrical signals, you can't alter reality with that.
What is this reality that you are talking about?
Reality is everything that exists. That which exists is what can be discerned by its qualities (for example : heat agitates molecules). Even space itself possesses the quality of being subject to gravity. There's nothing that doesn't possesses qualities, this is why there can't be any creator god : in order to exist it would need qualities, but if it does have qualities then it means that it pertains to our universe... since qualities function as agents of causality, qualities only exist as a cause and effect relation... so there can't be anything beyond everything (reality).

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rightviewftw
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Re: Bonjour

Post by rightviewftw » Sun May 06, 2018 10:25 pm

Layt wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 10:10 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 9:57 pm
Layt wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 9:54 pm
Like I said, craving is just hormones and electrical signals, you can't alter reality with that.
What is this reality that you are talking about?
Reality is everything that exists. That which exists is what can be discerned by its qualities (for example : heat agitates molecules). Even space itself possesses the quality of being subject to gravity. There's nothing that doesn't possesses qualities, this is why there can't be any creator god : in order to exist it would need qualities, but if it does have qualities then it means that it pertains to our universe... since qualities function as agents of causality, qualities only exist as a cause and effect relation... so there can't be anything beyond everything (reality).
How do you know that you are not just hallucinating and imagining the existence of all the things that have qualities? Are dreams reality? Do you exist?
I will try to avoid many questions, answer as you see fit.

Layt
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Re: Bonjour

Post by Layt » Sun May 06, 2018 10:29 pm

I don't deal with that kind of crappy metaphysical questions, they're stupid and useless.

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rightviewftw
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Re: Bonjour

Post by rightviewftw » Sun May 06, 2018 10:31 pm

Layt wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 10:29 pm
I don't deal with that kind of crappy metaphysical questions, they're stupid and useless.
Let's talk science then ;
Do you accept the copenhagen interpretation of the double slit experiment?

Because it is still very much unclear what you mean by reality, existence and consciousness. Saying "reality is all that exists" does not really answer what exists or provide a referent for what is reality without defining existence. A non-answer. If you were to define all that exists by reality, that would be rhetoric of tautology a self-reinforcing pretense.

So a fair question would be what is it that exists? And on what ground do you assume it's existence? Therefore i asked about the hallucination.

If "reality is all that exists", then the word craving exists and is ie a means of describing the activation of the dopamine network, when the craving for X is conditioned it can be said to arise in as far as the electrochemical reactions occur, due to the electrochemical reactions the behavior is determined, therefore craving affects reality in a cause and effect manner. In other words craving for X leads to seeking out and obtaining X, craving is a condition for seeking out, without craving reality would be altered.

If you want to keep talking about how craving does or does not condition/alter reality post-mortem we have to determine the exact nature of existence and consciousness in particular.

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