the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Jan 03, 2014 8:17 am

clw_uk wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:You mean when ajahn demolished a poition I had nearly 4 years ago? Really relevant :/
So, you have changed your position and your style of debate? So, you no longer reject literal rebirth as being taught in the suttas. Now, notice: I did not say that you believe in literal rebirth; rather, you simply acknowledge the fact that literal rebirth is, in fact, taught in the suttas. That is, indeed, quite a shift for you.

Of course rebirth is there, as it's pragmatic


I didn't appreciate this before.

However you can still practice with or without such a taint
Taint. Oh, yes, but "taint" may also be true as to the way the world works.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by clw_uk » Fri Jan 03, 2014 8:17 am

clw_uk wrote:I think rebirth is expounded quite well in the 4 Noble Truths.

In the first truth the buddha says:
Birth is suffering, aging is suffering, sickness is suffering, death is suffering, sorrow and lamentation, pain, grief and despair are suffering; association with the loathed is suffering, dissociation from the loved is suffering, not to get what one wants is suffering — in short, suffering is the five categories of clinging objects."


The Second Truth states the the origin of dukka is craving

Therefore if birth is dukka then its origin is craving

If Craving Condtions birth then there must have been an existence before where there was craving and that same craving will lead to more dukkha in the future, i.e birth.



Page 5, last post
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Jan 03, 2014 8:20 am

clw_uk wrote:Page 6, four pages down


Some gems from me on page 5 as well at the bottom
Okay, this is from your very early period before you went all Buddhadasa (or at least as your and your cohorts interpreted him) on this forum, where no evidence could, in anyway, count against your position. Interestingly, you now have reverted back to your early position.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by clw_uk » Fri Jan 03, 2014 8:21 am

Taint. Oh, yes, but "taint" may also be true as to the way the world works.

And so might be materialism however the point is of course the affect said view has on a "person".
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Jan 03, 2014 8:21 am

clw_uk wrote:
clw_uk wrote:I think rebirth is expounded quite well in the 4 Noble Truths.

In the first truth the buddha says:
Birth is suffering, aging is suffering, sickness is suffering, death is suffering, sorrow and lamentation, pain, grief and despair are suffering; association with the loathed is suffering, dissociation from the loved is suffering, not to get what one wants is suffering — in short, suffering is the five categories of clinging objects."


The Second Truth states the the origin of dukka is craving

Therefore if birth is dukka then its origin is craving

If Craving Condtions birth then there must have been an existence before where there was craving and that same craving will lead to more dukkha in the future, i.e birth.



Page 5, last post
And then you denied that, spending a great deal of time denying any evidence to that showed that your denial was wrong. Goodness.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by clw_uk » Fri Jan 03, 2014 8:23 am

tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:Page 6, four pages down


Some gems from me on page 5 as well at the bottom
Okay, this is from your very early period before you went all Buddhadasa (or at least as your and your cohorts interpreted him) on this forum, where no evidence could, in anyway, count against your position. Interestingly, you now have reverted back to your early position.

No I'm somewhere else :lol: :alien:
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Jan 03, 2014 8:24 am

clw_uk wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:Page 6, four pages down


Some gems from me on page 5 as well at the bottom
Okay, this is from your very early period before you went all Buddhadasa (or at least as your and your cohorts interpreted him) on this forum, where no evidence could, in anyway, count against your position. Interestingly, you now have reverted back to your early position.

No I'm somewhere else :lol: :alien:
Okay; however, sadly your debate skills are still in the 20's of this thread.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by clw_uk » Fri Jan 03, 2014 8:25 am

And then you denied that, spending a great deal of time denying any evidence to that showed that your denial was wrong. Goodness.

Because that wasn't the right view of the truths
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Jan 03, 2014 8:35 am

clw_uk wrote:
And then you denied that, spending a great deal of time denying any evidence to that showed that your denial was wrong. Goodness.

Because that wasn't the right view of the truths
When it comes to right view of the truth, I'll listen to Ven D before I would listen to you, but your "right view of the truth" was neatly shown to be wrong, repeatedly.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by clw_uk » Fri Jan 03, 2014 10:44 am

tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
And then you denied that, spending a great deal of time denying any evidence to that showed that your denial was wrong. Goodness.

Because that wasn't the right view of the truths
When it comes to right view of the truth, I'll listen to Ven D before I would listen to you, but your "right view of the truth" was neatly shown to be wrong, repeatedly.
Quid est veritas?


Sorry couldn't resist lol


That's fine :) but as I said, his responses are ... Old
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Jan 03, 2014 5:21 pm

clw_uk wrote:
That's fine :) but as I said, his responses are ... Old
Yes, well, Ajahn Dhammanando's postings are still worth reading, and it is interesting watching the "old" you try to wriggle your way out of what Ajahn D is clearly explaining.

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 440#p16747
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by clw_uk » Mon Jan 06, 2014 6:18 am

tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
That's fine :) but as I said, his responses are ... Old
Yes, well, Ajahn Dhammanando's postings are still worth reading, and it is interesting watching the "old" you try to wriggle your way out of what Ajahn D is clearly explaining.

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 440#p16747


And a post from years ago is relevant how?
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings » Mon Jan 06, 2014 6:33 am

clw_uk wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
That's fine :) but as I said, his responses are ... Old
Yes, well, Ajahn Dhammanando's postings are still worth reading, and it is interesting watching the "old" you try to wriggle your way out of what Ajahn D is clearly explaining.

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 440#p16747


And a post from years ago is relevant how?
So, you now hold a very different point of view? As I said, Ven Dhammanando's comments are instructive in the information they give and for that are worth reading, and it is also intertesting reading your old msgs as being instructive in how not to argue a point.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by clw_uk » Mon Jan 06, 2014 6:40 am

The view isn't important in of itself, it's more about the action and path it leads us down
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by AJungianIdeal » Mon Jan 06, 2014 10:28 am

clw_uk wrote:
chownah wrote:
AJungianIdeal wrote:I'm trying real hard to try and make rebirth mesh with neuroscience. Does rebirth depend on a dualistic conception of the mind? If not, what gets "transferred" as it was?
DNA?
chownah

Even if it did happen, and you knew how it happened, would that liberate your mind from dukkha?
Well, I could stop being concerned for children being murdered in war zones passing into nothingness; Have some peace that they will never have another chance at consciousness and perhaps learning the dharma? Hell, even just having a chance to get through adolescences would be nifty.

But it if it feels to wishful it probably is.

As for DNA, the 1 thing I know about rebirth is that it is not familial or generational or anything like that.

To be less angry. I've been obsessing with death and I know it's not healthy.
Last edited by AJungianIdeal on Tue Jan 07, 2014 1:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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