the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Aug 27, 2013 5:42 am

chownah wrote:So far I have read that literal rebirth view can be good for motivating one to follow the buddha's teachings...for some people. I would like to read about some ways that literal rebirth view enters into someones practice in some way other than as a motivating principle.....do people try to be mindful of it for some reason other than motivation?.....do they contemplate it for some reason other than motivation?....how do people use literal rebirth view to enhance the other teachings....or to mesh in with the other teachings?
chownah
What do you think might be answers to your questions?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Aloka
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Aloka » Tue Aug 27, 2013 8:06 am

.

Something that I'd find interesting to read in this thread, would be any personal experiences of rebirth that people have had.
I don't mean things that have been read, or heard from other people, or seen in videos. Nor do I mean the results of "past life regression" sessions with a psychic or a hypnotherapist. I mean experiences of rebirth which have happened without the intervention or assistance of anyone else and without having taken (or had administered medically) any drugs or alcohol.


:anjali:

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retrofuturist
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Aug 27, 2013 8:32 am

Greetings,

Well, I was told by a colleague today, that he, I and another colleague (who happens also to be a Dhamma Wheel member) used to debate as monks in a previous life in Tibet.

Does that count?

:D

(p.s. now I don't really take what he said altogether seriously in this instance, but I do know that this person does have certain talents which could legitimately be described as paranormal)

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Dinsdale » Tue Aug 27, 2013 8:39 am

Aloka wrote: In general, I don't honestly see that there's any point in having this thread called "The Great Rebirth Debate," if only one viewpoint is considered to be acceptable.
But that works both ways.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Dinsdale » Tue Aug 27, 2013 8:45 am

Aloka wrote: I mean experiences of rebirth which have happened without the intervention or assistance of anyone else and without having taken (or had administered medically) any drugs or alcohol.
I've had an long-standing interest in the psychology of dreams, and from time to time I have unusual dreams which feel very much like memories. Once I had an extended series of dreams about life and death as a German soldier on the Russian front in World War Two.

Of course this is all completely entirely subjective and inconclusive, and it isn't a basis for believing in rebirth - but I do find it intriguing.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Dinsdale » Tue Aug 27, 2013 8:50 am

clw_uk wrote: He does however dismiss any speculation of future lives as a waste of time and argues for D.O. occurring in the present moment, so clinging causing birth of "I am" that can spill over into another life
Yes, I get that. But I don't think we're speculating about future lives here ( it's a strawman ), what we're actually speculating about is the Buddha's teaching, and how it should be interpreted and applied.
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Aloka
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Aloka » Tue Aug 27, 2013 8:51 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

Well, I was told by a colleague today, that he, I and another colleague (who happens also to be a Dhamma Wheel member) used to debate as monks in a previous life in Tibet.

Does that count?

:D

(p.s. now I don't really take what he said altogether seriously in this instance, but I do know that this person does have certain talents which could legitimately be described as paranormal)

Metta,
Retro. :)
Well I was once told by a Tibetan tulku that I was a dakini and that I knew him and a couple of other tulkus in previous lives in Tibet....so perhaps you and I knew each other in Tibet too - and now we've been reborn here in a repetitive rebirth thread hell realm, Retro !

:lol:
Last edited by Aloka on Tue Aug 27, 2013 8:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Dinsdale » Tue Aug 27, 2013 8:52 am

daverupa wrote:Also,
Spiny Norman wrote:
mikenz66 wrote: The last two chapters of the Sn are often cited as being very early suttas.
Mike, by first 2 chapters, do you mean the first 2 books? That would be the Book with verses, SN1 - SN11, and the Book of causation, SN12 - SN21? SN12 is Nidanavagga, the one relating to DO.
:shrug:
So I misunderstood. OK.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Aug 27, 2013 8:52 am

Greetings Aloka,

:rofl:

:twothumbsup:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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clw_uk
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by clw_uk » Tue Aug 27, 2013 9:50 am

Spiny Norman wrote:
clw_uk wrote: He does however dismiss any speculation of future lives as a waste of time and argues for D.O. occurring in the present moment, so clinging causing birth of "I am" that can spill over into another life
Yes, I get that. But I don't think we're speculating about future lives here ( it's a strawman ), what we're actually speculating about is the Buddha's teaching, and how it should be interpreted and applied.


I know :) I was just stating what Buddhadasa position was as a side note, nothing to do with this discussion
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by chownah » Tue Aug 27, 2013 10:58 am

tiltbillings wrote:
chownah wrote:So far I have read that literal rebirth view can be good for motivating one to follow the buddha's teachings...for some people. I would like to read about some ways that literal rebirth view enters into someones practice in some way other than as a motivating principle.....do people try to be mindful of it for some reason other than motivation?.....do they contemplate it for some reason other than motivation?....how do people use literal rebirth view to enhance the other teachings....or to mesh in with the other teachings?
chownah
What do you think might be answers to your questions?
Answers to my questions might be when someone who believes in literal rebirth posts how it is part of their practice as I have described or in some similar way....very simple really.
chownah

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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Aug 27, 2013 11:23 am

chownah wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
chownah wrote:So far I have read that literal rebirth view can be good for motivating one to follow the buddha's teachings...for some people. I would like to read about some ways that literal rebirth view enters into someones practice in some way other than as a motivating principle.....do people try to be mindful of it for some reason other than motivation?.....do they contemplate it for some reason other than motivation?....how do people use literal rebirth view to enhance the other teachings....or to mesh in with the other teachings?
chownah
What do you think might be answers to your questions?
Answers to my questions might be when someone who believes in literal rebirth posts how it is part of their practice as I have described or in some similar way....very simple really.
chownah
In other words, you are not going to try to empathetically put yourself in their shoes to try understand what it might mean to hold such a view.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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daverupa
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by daverupa » Tue Aug 27, 2013 11:35 am

chownah wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
chownah wrote:So far I have read that literal rebirth view can be good for motivating one to follow the buddha's teachings...for some people. I would like to read about some ways that literal rebirth view enters into someones practice in some way other than as a motivating principle.....do people try to be mindful of it for some reason other than motivation?.....do they contemplate it for some reason other than motivation?....how do people use literal rebirth view to enhance the other teachings....or to mesh in with the other teachings?
chownah
What do you think might be answers to your questions?
Answers to my questions might be when someone who believes in literal rebirth posts how it is part of their practice as I have described or in some similar way....very simple really.
chownah
I am :popcorn: as well, chownah. The view already means something significant to many, and I would like to see a testimonial. But perhaps it will make reference to abhinna, and thus leave the person open to ridicule? Even so, this wouldn't really be answering the question of how it affects practice; perhaps knowing the fact of it is motivating somehow, and thus psychic and not worth mentioning online, but otherwise not present for the practical day-to-day? But that would be agreeing with those who say it isn't essential... so, I guess there are some psychic experiences folks are reticent to talk about.

There may be an opening here for a thread on motivational strategies being used. Perhaps rebirth will come up in that case?
tiltbillings wrote: you are not going to try to empathetically put yourself in their shoes to try understand what it might mean to hold such a view.
It would be make-believe, in my case; empathy is one thing, understanding another's mind something else again. chownah has simply asked for their own words.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by lyndon taylor » Tue Aug 27, 2013 1:13 pm

Well The no rebirthers want to see testimonials, I would like some testimonials from the no rebirthers on the topic; "how I know my views are superior to the Buddha's and overide what the Buddha said, and how I can claim to have no ego at the same time I put my ideas above the buddha's"
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by kirk5a » Tue Aug 27, 2013 1:45 pm

I had a dream about rebirth as a fruit fly if I didn't quit drinking. (Fruit flies consume alcohol from rotting fruit.) Pretty terrifying. I quit drinking.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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