the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Alex123
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Re: What is rebirth?

Post by Alex123 » Wed Sep 30, 2015 11:53 pm

freedom wrote:
Alex123 wrote: How is this information is copied from one brain to another? We don't see any physical link between a person who died, in one place and reborn in another place which could be very far away.
To answer this question, when a person A is dying, the copy process takes place and B is created (At this time A and B is connected. B is only separated from A when A is completely dead). B is not a person with flesh and bone.
Exactly how this "copy process" can be proven?
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Re: What is rebirth?

Post by freedom » Thu Oct 01, 2015 1:00 am

Alex123 wrote: Exactly how this "copy process" can be proven?
If we look deep into a brain, we see brain cells are continuously died and recreated. Information that are stored in these cells are regularly copied from the old ones to the new ones, and are stored in various places. This copying process is continuously happening in our body.

Information is not stored in one place only. If we know how we can hot swap a failed hard drive in a disk array, we will see that lost information in one area can be recreated from other areas. Our memory's storage is even much more sophisticated than this computer's disk array.
One should not be negligent of discernment, should guard the truth, be devoted to relinquishment, and train only for calm - MN 140.

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Re: What is rebirth?

Post by freedom » Thu Oct 01, 2015 1:13 am

Alex123 wrote: But if consciousness, memory, mental skills, etc, depends on physical - then new birth is new birth rather than rebirth.
This is called rebirth because it is not the same with reincarnation. Moreover, the new one has all the information (kamma...) of the old one. The new one is not the old one, but they are not different.
One should not be negligent of discernment, should guard the truth, be devoted to relinquishment, and train only for calm - MN 140.

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Alex123
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Re: What is rebirth?

Post by Alex123 » Thu Oct 01, 2015 1:49 am

freedom wrote: If we look deep into a brain, we see brain cells are continuously died and recreated. Information that are stored in these cells are regularly copied from the old ones to the new ones, and are stored in various places. This copying process is continuously happening in our body.
We can see that (in one person, in super close proximity), sure. But we do not see and do not have explanatory mechanism of how this happens across different people and across very vast spaces.
freedom wrote: Information is not stored in one place only. If we know how we can hot swap a failed hard drive in a disk array, we will see that lost information in one area can be recreated from other areas. Our memory's storage is even much more sophisticated than this computer's disk array.
If that happened, science would be able to see this carry over. Unfortunately, right now this can't be seen.
freedom wrote:
Alex123 wrote: But if consciousness, memory, mental skills, etc, depends on physical - then new birth is new birth rather than rebirth.
This is called rebirth because it is not the same with reincarnation. Moreover, the new one has all the information (kamma...) of the old one. The new one is not the old one, but they are not different.
We do not see the child having all the information from the previous life. It seems that an infant has to learn almost everything a new, as if one never knew it...
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Re: What is rebirth?

Post by freedom » Thu Oct 01, 2015 2:33 am

Alex123 wrote: We can see that (in one person, in super close proximity), sure. But we do not see and do not have explanatory mechanism of how this happens across different people and across very vast spaces.
As I have said, the copying process does not happen across very vast spaces. The new copy is right there and connected to the old one when it happened. However, the new one is mostly information (data), therefore, it could be transferred as the speed of thought or the speed of light after it is separated from the old one.
Alex123 wrote: If that happened, science would be able to see this carry over. Unfortunately, right now this can't be seen.
Before Einstein found theory of relativity, no one knew that or accept that, but it does not mean that it is wrong. Now with quantum physics, we can see new weird stuffs that we never believe them before ...
Alex123 wrote: We do not see the child having all the information from the previous life. It seems that an infant has to learn almost everything a new, as if one never knew it...
There are many children who can remember their past lives. Just make a simple search in Google and you can see a lot of information.
One should not be negligent of discernment, should guard the truth, be devoted to relinquishment, and train only for calm - MN 140.

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Re: What is rebirth?

Post by rowboat » Thu Oct 01, 2015 2:46 am

Alex123 wrote: We do not see the child having all the information from the previous life. It seems that an infant has to learn almost everything a new, as if one never knew it...
Hi Alex. With all due respect, I think it would really benefit you to put your doubts aside for a while and redouble your efforts in developing concentration. Remember that skeptical doubt is a Hindrance, and as such, it has its own appropriate antidotes.
Rain soddens what is covered up,
It does not sodden what is open.
Therefore uncover what is covered
That the rain will not sodden it.
Ud 5.5

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Ben
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Re: What is rebirth?

Post by Ben » Thu Oct 01, 2015 4:29 am

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:There is no point repeating the Great Rebirth Debate again.

Please read the references given already and try to understand the Buddha's teaching.
This is excellent advice by Venerable Pesala. I suggest one should read the links generously given by Bhante and if one is interested in debating the nature of rebirth then please join the discussion on the Great Rebirth Debate.
Kind regards,
Ben
Last edited by DNS on Thu Oct 08, 2015 4:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: post not edited, just a note that this topic merged with the great rebirth thread, since it is the same topic
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by dxm_dxm » Mon Oct 19, 2015 2:17 pm

By method of induction, I was able to find out laws of rebirth not known by many people and enlighten you all. They are:

1. The law of karmma always works exponentialy.
2. The law of karmma always works in spectacular and ironic ways.
3. The law of karmma make people be reborn very close to where they lived before.
4. The form of your next rebirth depends very much on a specific random thought or action you have done in this life. Maybe the other 99,999% also count in defining the level of happiness but the specific form of your rebirth depends on a specific random thought or action. And it always has to be ironical, cynical
5. A strange or evil random, unintended OCD thought has the power to determine your next rebirth. This is because OCD random thoughts are due to past karmma that has now come to fruition. (20% of people suffer from OCD and from time to time have strange or evil thoughts pop up in their heads. Even if they do not come up with intention and are never acted upon, it seems that there is a problem)
6. A random, unintended OCD thought even has the power to transform your present body into something else if the thought that pops up involves an advanced monk.
7. The state of mind one has at the moment of death is not only more important that everything that you did in this life, but at least the next imidiate rebirth depends 100% on it.

Reading them carefully, maybe you have noticed point 7 get's in contradiction with point 4. It is beyond me too. If you want to find out how I came with these inductions feel free to check my topic at http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=24082" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Is this right view or wrong view ?

Expedient Means
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Expedient Means » Sat Nov 28, 2015 8:08 pm

Hi everyone, why is it that the thread has changed into "what is rebirth"? Has the discussion around the rebirth debate ceased or evolved? I wish to ask some questions around the original debate, however some users are being referred back to the debate thread, but I thought this was it? :thinking:

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by mikenz66 » Sat Nov 28, 2015 8:39 pm

Hi Expedient Means,

We periodically merge rebirth threads into this one, which would explain your confusion. Feel free to discuss anything about rebirth here...

:anjali:
Mike

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Spiny Norman
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Spiny Norman » Sat Nov 28, 2015 8:40 pm

Expedient Means wrote:Hi everyone, why is it that the thread has changed into "what is rebirth"? Has the discussion around the rebirth debate ceased or evolved? I wish to ask some questions around the original debate, however some users are being referred back to the debate thread, but I thought this was it? :thinking:
It looks like the "What is rebirth?" thread has been rolled into "the great rebirth debate" thread.
"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Expedient Means » Sat Nov 28, 2015 9:30 pm

Thanks both of you. Well only until recently I believed that there was only one united view, that of the "literal rebirth". I have read quite a bit of this thread and its mergings but I'm finding it challenging to string together a direct answer to a few of my questions due to long separate discussions and tangents. My questions are fairly basic as I've just this week come across this division in view.

Firstly I wish to qualify by loose definition that I understand correctly what is meant by "literal rebirth" and "non literal rebirth". (A google search yielded no help).

1) A literal rebirth is where the concept of rebirth is seen to happen at the end of a beings life where the "stream" transmigrates and takes a new form. In this view, death is the same as birth and at the moment of death, there are complex summaries of karmas that determine feautres the next "phase", metaphorically speaking, causing birth in the "womb".

2) A "non literal rebirth", is where rebirth is actually occurring many times in many moments, as in theory, we become a different being after every influence.

Secondly, I have a few questions to throw out there:

3) If these really loose definitions are correct, could it be that literal rebirth and non literal rebirth are the same thing/co-exist? So in this case, theoretically, we are reborn over and over many times during this "phase" when specific events/states/karmas occur, resulting in a change to our being (however subtle). Then, at the moment of death, rebirth in the conventional way takes place however this is merely another occurrence of the "rebirth phenomenon", similar to the non literal type, except the notable difference is that this is a new phase of karma resulting in a literal rebirth.

4) If the loose definition of "non-literal rebirth" I provided earlier is correct, I don't see where new phases or lives begin? Maybe this is why I was encountering claims of annihilationism and nihilism earlier. Surely this is not the case, it just doesn't seem clear to me!

It's worth noting at this point that rebirth, states of consciousness and their relationships with the 31 planes of existence is of great interest to me however, at the same time I recognise that it is not necessarily essential or immediately useful in practice.

Thanks
:anjali:

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Spiny Norman » Sat Nov 28, 2015 10:06 pm

Expedient Means wrote:3) If these really loose definitions are correct, could it be that literal rebirth and non literal rebirth are the same thing/co-exist?
Yes, and they are not mutually exclusive interpretations.
Expedient Means wrote:4) If the loose definition of "non-literal rebirth" I provided earlier is correct, I don't see where new phases or lives begin?
People talk about a continual rebirth of self-view. For me waking up in the morning feels like a sort of rebirth. ;)
"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
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YouthThunder
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by YouthThunder » Sun Jan 03, 2016 3:40 pm

I am quite certain Buddha mention existence of some sort of guards of hell? But I never heard them included under one of the possible incarnations like human ,deva ,asura. In fact, why they exist and why are they guarding hell?

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by dhammacoustic » Fri Feb 12, 2016 10:45 pm

Uppādā vā tathagātanaṃ anuppādā vā tathagātanaṃ, ṭhitāva sā dhātu dhammaṭṭhitatā dhammaniyāmatā idappaccayatā. Taṃ tathagāto abhisam­buj­jhati abhisameti. Abhisam­bujjhitvā abhisametvā ācikkhati deseti paññāpeti paṭṭhapeti vivarati vibhajati uttānīkaroti. ‘Passathā’ti cāha; ‘avijjāpaccayā, bhikkhave, saṅkhārā’. Iti kho, bhikkhave, yā tatra tathatā avitathatā anaññathatā idappaccayatā-ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, paṭiccasamup­pādo.
:heart: namō tassa bhagavatō, arahatō, sammā sambuddhassā

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Re: Poll: Belief in rebirth

Post by cappuccino » Mon Apr 04, 2016 6:35 pm

Skepticism is a fetter.
Matthew 7

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Re: Poll: Belief in rebirth

Post by dhammacoustic » Mon Apr 04, 2016 8:27 pm

cappuccino wrote:Skepticism is a fetter.
Vicikiccha is rather a state of mind. Mental confusion regarding the Paṭiccasamuppāda, or one of its links.

Skepticisim is a conscious process, so it is not really a fetter, but a wise attitude.

Nonetheless, 'skeptical doubt' is a bad translation for vicikiccha. The actual meaning is 'mental wobble' that is rooted in craving & inappropriate attention.

Literal translations;

1. vici (look for) kiccha (to be vexed)
2. vi (devoid of) cikiccha (medicine/remedy)
Uppādā vā tathagātanaṃ anuppādā vā tathagātanaṃ, ṭhitāva sā dhātu dhammaṭṭhitatā dhammaniyāmatā idappaccayatā. Taṃ tathagāto abhisam­buj­jhati abhisameti. Abhisam­bujjhitvā abhisametvā ācikkhati deseti paññāpeti paṭṭhapeti vivarati vibhajati uttānīkaroti. ‘Passathā’ti cāha; ‘avijjāpaccayā, bhikkhave, saṅkhārā’. Iti kho, bhikkhave, yā tatra tathatā avitathatā anaññathatā idappaccayatā-ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, paṭiccasamup­pādo.
:heart: namō tassa bhagavatō, arahatō, sammā sambuddhassā

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cappuccino
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Re: Poll: Belief in rebirth

Post by cappuccino » Tue Apr 05, 2016 12:46 am

Lack of trust in the dhamma.
Matthew 7

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Re: Poll: Belief in rebirth

Post by Lazy_eye » Tue Apr 05, 2016 1:18 pm

cappuccino wrote:Lack of trust in the dhamma.
But what is your reason for taking up the Dhamma in the first place? is it based on the premise that rebirth happens?

In that case, we have a circular argument: "one should believe in rebirth because otherwise one will never escape rebirth."

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Re: Poll: Belief in rebirth

Post by dxm_dxm » Tue Apr 05, 2016 1:23 pm

If one does not believe in rebirth and karma, then one does not believe in justice. If one does not believe in some form of justice, then he does not believe in the notions of good/skillful an bad/unskillful actions. Regardless if he is right or wrong, this is an attitude that is not going to be conductive to following the path

In the same way the agregates assembled to form this ilusion of "me" in this world, in the same way they can assemble and create this illusion again. Dreamily I have appeared here, dreamily I can appear again

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