the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings »

reflection wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:When that passage is taken in its fuller context, you cannot say this: "The life of an enlightened being is impermanent, and so in that light it is also a form of dukkha - albeit a very subtle one," unless you are stating that an arahant is still regarding the khandhas in terms of delusional self.
Hi tilt,

I would appreciate if you could clarify your view a bit further. Obviously I don't see it that way, so I can only guess to what your point is.

:anjali:
You seem to be suggesting that an arahant still has dukkha, but then never mind the 3rd Noble Truth that states that dukkha has been stopped. Either awakening is being free of dukkha or it is not. I would simply state as does the text in question when one no longer regards the khandhas in terms of self, there is no dukkha, no matter how much the khandhas may or may not change. Keep in mind that awakening is freedom from grasping after what changes in terms of self, pushing away what changes in terms of self, or regarding any aspect of one's experience as being a self. The dukkha of the changing khandhas is in the misapprehension of them. Seeing the khandhas correctly one is liberated. Liberated from what? See the 3rd Noble Truth.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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reflection
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by reflection »

tiltbillings wrote:
reflection wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:When that passage is taken in its fuller context, you cannot say this: "The life of an enlightened being is impermanent, and so in that light it is also a form of dukkha - albeit a very subtle one," unless you are stating that an arahant is still regarding the khandhas in terms of delusional self.
Hi tilt,

I'm not saying an arahant has dukkha as that would define some thing that is the arahant that

I would appreciate if you could clarify your view a bit further. Obviously I don't see it that way, so I can only guess to what your point is.

:anjali:
You seem to be suggesting that an arahant still has dukkha, but then never mind the 3rd Noble Truth that states that dukkha has been stopped. Either awakening is being free of dukkha or it is not. I would simply state as does the text in question when one no longer regards the khandhas in terms of self, there is no dukkha, no matter how much the khandhas may or may not change. Keep in mind that awakening is freedom from grasping after what changes in terms of self, pushing away what changes in terms of self, or regarding any aspect of one's experience as being a self. The dukkha of the changing khandhas is in the misapprehension of them. Seeing the khandhas correctly one is liberated. Liberated from what? See the 3rd Noble Truth.
Hi tilt,

I think it is important to look at all the noble truths and not just one. Looking at the noble truth of suffering it states:

"Now this, monks, is the noble truth of stress: Birth is stressful, aging is stressful, death is stressful; sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are stressful; association with the unbeloved is stressful, separation from the loved is stressful, not getting what is wanted is stressful. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are stressful."

Here (and as far as I know, nowhere else) suffering is not defined as having a view of self. If that was to define dukkha, than surely the Buddha would have said it here. Instead he quite plainly says aging and death, an obvious form of impermanence, are dukkha. Also in the anatta sutta I quoted before the link is as follows: impermanence -> suffering. It is not as you seem to imply: view of self -> suffering.

So to come to the 3rd noble truth, in my understanding it says the cessation of craving leads to the cessation of stress. The word 'cessation' I think is a good translation here as it implies a process. So also here the link is not instant. If we put the 3rd noble truth into its fuller form of dependent cessation this may be a bit more obvious again by the link "aging and death" not having ended, and the words "from the cessation of this comes the cessation of that".

Also, if a view of self in the aggregates would equate or lead to suffering than one with right view (sotapanna) would already have made an ended to suffering, but this is not so. It is "the craving that makes for further becoming" (second noble truth) that leads to suffering.

(all quotes from http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html)

:anjali:
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kirk5a
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by kirk5a »

tiltbillings wrote:Either awakening is being free of dukkha or it is not.
It's not that black and white. The Buddha described two Nibbana properties.
And what is the Unbinding property with fuel remaining? There is the case where a monk is an arahant whose fermentations have ended, who has reached fulfillment, finished the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, ended the fetter of becoming, and is released through right gnosis. His five sense faculties still remain and, owing to their being intact, he is cognizant of the agreeable & the disagreeable, and is sensitive to pleasure & pain. His ending of passion, aversion, & delusion is termed the Unbinding property with fuel remaining.[1]

And what is the Unbinding property with no fuel remaining? There is the case where a monk is an arahant whose fermentations have ended, who has reached fulfillment, finished the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, ended the fetter of becoming, and is released through right gnosis. For him, all that is sensed, being unrelished, will grow cold right here. This is termed the Unbinding property with no fuel remaining."[2]


These two proclaimed
by the one with vision,
Unbinding properties the one independent,
the one who is Such:[3]
one property, here in this life
with fuel remaining
from the destruction
of the guide to becoming,
and that with no fuel remaining,
after this life,
in which all becoming
totally ceases.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... ml#iti-044
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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kirk5a
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by kirk5a »

reflection wrote:Also in the anatta sutta I quoted before the link is as follows: impermanence -> suffering.
And even more flatly stated here.
These three feelings have been spoken of by me: a feeling of pleasure, a feeling of pain, & a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain. These are the three feelings spoken of by me. But I have also said: 'Whatever is felt comes under stress.' That I have stated simply in connection with the inconstancy of fabrications. That I have stated simply in connection with the nature of fabrications to end... in connection with the nature of fabrications to fall away... to fade away... to cease... in connection with the nature of fabrications to change.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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BlackBird
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by BlackBird »

An arahant does not have dukkha. The Buddha answers this one categorically and to state otherwise is a serious misrepresentation of his teaching.

Phusanti phassā upadhim paticca
Nirūpadhim kena phuseyyum phassā
Contacts contact dependent on ground—
How should contacts contact a groundless one? Udāna ii,4 <Ud.12>

Quite simply put: There's nobody there to experience dukkha. Hence the Buddha's epithet: Tathagata - The one thus gone.
It must, of course, be remembered that phassanirodha in the arahat does not mean that experience as such (pañcakkhandhā) is at an end. But, also, there is no experience without phassa. In other words, to the extent that we can still speak of an eye, of forms, and of eye-consciousness (seeing)—e.g. Samvijjati kho āvuso Bhagavato cakkhu, passati Bhagavā cakkhunā rūpam, chandarāgo Bhagavato n'atthi, suvimuttacitto Bhagavā ('The Auspicious One, friend, possesses an eye; the Auspicious One sees visible forms with the eye; desire-&-lust for the Auspicious One there is not; the Auspicious One is wholly freed in heart (citta)' (Cf. ATTĀ [c].)) (Salāyatana Samy. xviii,5 <S.iv,164>)—to that extent we can still speak of phassa. But it must no longer be regarded as contact with me (or with him, or with somebody). There is, and there is not, contact in the case of the arahat, just as there is, and there is not, consciousness.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
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kirk5a
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by kirk5a »

BlackBird wrote:An arahant does not have dukkha. The Buddha answers this one categorically and to state otherwise is a serious misrepresentation of his teaching.

Phusanti phassā upadhim paticca
Nirūpadhim kena phuseyyum phassā
Contacts contact dependent on ground—
How should contacts contact a groundless one? Udāna ii,4 <Ud.12>

Quite simply put: There's nobody there to experience dukkha. Hence the Buddha's epithet: Tathagata - The one thus gone.
It must, of course, be remembered that phassanirodha in the arahat does not mean that experience as such (pañcakkhandhā) is at an end. But, also, there is no experience without phassa. In other words, to the extent that we can still speak of an eye, of forms, and of eye-consciousness (seeing)—e.g. Samvijjati kho āvuso Bhagavato cakkhu, passati Bhagavā cakkhunā rūpam, chandarāgo Bhagavato n'atthi, suvimuttacitto Bhagavā ('The Auspicious One, friend, possesses an eye; the Auspicious One sees visible forms with the eye; desire-&-lust for the Auspicious One there is not; the Auspicious One is wholly freed in heart (citta)' (Cf. ATTĀ [c].)) (Salāyatana Samy. xviii,5 <S.iv,164>)—to that extent we can still speak of phassa. But it must no longer be regarded as contact with me (or with him, or with somebody). There is, and there is not, contact in the case of the arahat, just as there is, and there is not, consciousness.
Well we have interpretations, and then we have this:
His five sense faculties still remain and, owing to their being intact, he is cognizant of the agreeable & the disagreeable, and is sensitive to pleasure & pain.
As to the "relationship," so to speak, of the Arahant to dukkha (does the Arahant still "have" dukkha, or what?") it was described in the Arrow Sutta like this:
He is disjoined, I tell you, from suffering & stress.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings »

kirk5a wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Either awakening is being free of dukkha or it is not.
It's not that black and white. The Buddha described two Nibbana properties.
Either one is freed from -- no longer conditioned by and no longer generating conditioning based on -- greed, hatred and delusion, or one is not. This not a "wait until death" thing. Such an awakened individual can have physical pain, but such an individual is no longer subject to the conditioned dukkha of wanting what reinforces the sense of self, such an individual is no longer subject to the conditioned dukkha of trying to push away that which threatens the sense of self, and such an individual is no longer subject to the conditioned dukkha based upon the fuel of the delusion that we are truly are at our core an unchanging agent/self.
  • "Then, Malunkyaputta, with regard to phenomena to be seen, heard, sensed, or cognized: In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how you should train yourself. When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Malunkyaputta, there is no you in connection with that. When there is no you in connection with that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress."
    -- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Dukkha, which resulted from the misapprehension of reality grounded in greed, hatred and delusion, is no longer a basis for measuring the arahant/tathagata:
  • Lust is a maker of measurement, hate is a maker of measurement, delusion is a maker of measurement.
    -- MN I 289
  • "What wise man here would seek to define
    An immeasurable one (i.e. arahant) by taking his measure?
    He who would measure an immeasurable one
    Must be, I think, an obstructed moron."
    -- SN I 149
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings »

kirk5a wrote:
He is disjoined, I tell you, from suffering & stress.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
That sutta neatly makes my point.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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kirk5a
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by kirk5a »

tiltbillings wrote:Either one is freed from -- no longer conditioned by and no longer generating conditioning based on -- greed, hatred and delusion, or one is not. This not a "wait until death" thing. Such an awakened individual can have physical pain, but such an individual is no longer subject to the conditioned dukkha of wanting what reinforces the sense of self, such an individual is no longer subject to the conditioned dukkha of trying to push away that which threatens the sense of self, and such an individual is no longer subject to the conditioned dukkha based upon the fuel of the delusion that we are truly are at our core an unchanging agent/self.
You are just repeating what you said earlier, without acknowledging the Two Nibbana elements. The "end of stress" quoted below, refers to the first.
  • "Then, Malunkyaputta, with regard to phenomena to be seen, heard, sensed, or cognized: In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how you should train yourself. When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Malunkyaputta, there is no you in connection with that. When there is no you in connection with that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress."
-- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html [/list]
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Alex123
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Alex123 »

tiltbillings wrote:
kirk5a wrote:
He is disjoined, I tell you, from suffering & stress.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
That sutta neatly makes my point.

What exactly does "disjoined" means?
Does it mean that one still experiences suffering & stress but doesn't consider it to be his.
or
One does not feel suffering and stress at all.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by kirk5a »

tiltbillings wrote:
kirk5a wrote:
He is disjoined, I tell you, from suffering & stress.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
That sutta neatly makes my point.
No it doesn't. You said "there is no dukkha" yet you acknowledge the arahant feels physical pain, which is dukkha.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings »

reflection wrote:Also, if a view of self in the aggregates would equate or lead to suffering than one with right view (sotapanna) would already have made an ended to suffering, but this is not so. It is "the craving that makes for further becoming" (second noble truth) that leads to suffering.

(all quotes from http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html)
You are forgetting about "I am" -- asmi-māna based in the khandhas:
  • (lit.: 'I am'-conceit), 'ego-conceit', may range from the coarsest pride and self-assertion to a subtle feeling of one's distinctiveness or superiority that persists, as the 8th fetter (samyojana, q.v.), until the attainment of Arahatship or Holiness.

    It is based upon the comparison of oneself with others, and may, therefore, manifest itself also as a feeling of inferiority or the claim to be equal (s. māna).

    It has to be distinguished from 'ego-belief' (sakkāya-ditthi, q.v.) which implies a definite belief or view (ditthi) concerning the assumption of a self or soul, and, being the 1st of the fetters, disappears at attainment of Stream-Entry (sotāpatti; s. ariya-puggala).

    "Even when the five lower fetters have vanished in a noble disciple, there is still in him, with regard to the five groups of clinging, a slight undiscarded measure of the conceit 'I am', of the will 'I am', of the proclivity 'I am' " (S . XXII, 89)
    -- http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/a/asmi_maana.htm
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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kirk5a
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by kirk5a »

Alex123 wrote:What exactly does "disjoined" means?
To know "exactly" I think one must attain the paths and fruitions.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings »

kirk5a wrote:
tilt wrote:
That sutta neatly makes my point.
No it doesn't. You said "there is no dukkha" yet you acknowledge the arahant feels physical pain, which is dukkha.
Physical pain is not the "dukkha" from which the living arahant is released. Given that I have carefully drawn out what I mean, the sutta clearly makes my point. The only dukkha that really matters in terms of liberation, in terms of Dhamma practice, the only dukkha Dhamma practice actually addresses is that which is grounded in measuring factors greed, hatred, and delusion.

Living or dead, the tathagata/arahant is beyond the measure, and as Malunkyaputta Sutta/Bahiya sutta states dukkha has ended, but do keep in mind what the context of how this is said.

This statement: "The life of an enlightened being is impermanent, and so in that light it is also a form of dukkha - albeit a very subtle one," is not appropriate. It is measuring the arahant/tathagata.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings »

kirk5a wrote: You are just repeating what you said earlier, without acknowledging the Two Nibbana elements.
Not relevant to my point.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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