the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by DNS » Sun Jun 04, 2017 12:24 am

Luca123 wrote:
justindesilva wrote: Regarding belief of 're birth there is evidence sufficiently available. I make this statement as though born a buddhist I did not accept buddhism until I could clear the truth of rebirth. The first case that made me to be convinced was the story of Gnanathilaka (in early 1950s), that was investigated by a team of scholars, media and a Mahanayake thero of Vajirarama temple of Colombo. It was reported in a daily news journal that could be followed by any body with facts. Then from time to time there were other true stories reported . It is a matter of genuine interest if one needs to find the truth of rebirth.
If this were true, all the world would be talking about this now
If this is not the case, this means that vry probably we are talking about fake news
Not necessarily. As I mentioned in another thread, anything that has a religious connotation to it and the skeptics dismiss it as superstition. It thereby becomes impossible to convince the skeptic.

Ajahn Brahm has also referenced some of the so-called Ian Stevenson / Tucker reports. Today with the internet, I imagine it would be pretty easy to research some person's biography and 'claim' that as one of your previous lives, but apparently many of the Stevenson / Tucker cases were well before the internet and the subjects did describe their alleged past life in great detail. I haven't read those reports personally but heard from some people who did and some seemed convinced. Ajahn Brahm has said the reports appear genuine, it's just that the skeptics are raising the bar too high and will never be satisfied no matter how much detail is provided.

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Luca123 » Sun Jun 04, 2017 9:54 am

David N. Snyder wrote:
Luca123 wrote:
justindesilva wrote: Regarding belief of 're birth there is evidence sufficiently available. I make this statement as though born a buddhist I did not accept buddhism until I could clear the truth of rebirth. The first case that made me to be convinced was the story of Gnanathilaka (in early 1950s), that was investigated by a team of scholars, media and a Mahanayake thero of Vajirarama temple of Colombo. It was reported in a daily news journal that could be followed by any body with facts. Then from time to time there were other true stories reported . It is a matter of genuine interest if one needs to find the truth of rebirth.
If this were true, all the world would be talking about this now
If this is not the case, this means that vry probably we are talking about fake news
Not necessarily. As I mentioned in another thread, anything that has a religious connotation to it and the skeptics dismiss it as superstition. It thereby becomes impossible to convince the skeptic.

Ajahn Brahm has also referenced some of the so-called Ian Stevenson / Tucker reports. Today with the internet, I imagine it would be pretty easy to research some person's biography and 'claim' that as one of your previous lives, but apparently many of the Stevenson / Tucker cases were well before the internet and the subjects did describe their alleged past life in great detail. I haven't read those reports personally but heard from some people who did and some seemed convinced. Ajahn Brahm has said the reports appear genuine, it's just that the skeptics are raising the bar too high and will never be satisfied no matter how much detail is provided.
Has there been ONE single person who can tell the credit card number, the telephone number, the bank account number, the number of his car (plate number) of his/her previous life?
It would be enormously easy to convince scientists about being previous lives
Just tell where you met your previous life wife and details (I could provide hundreds of details of my current life that can not be known by anyone than me)

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by DNS » Sun Jun 04, 2017 2:31 pm

Luca123 wrote: Has there been ONE single person who can tell the credit card number, the telephone number, the bank account number, the number of his car (plate number) of his/her previous life?
It would be enormously easy to convince scientists about being previous lives
Just tell where you met your previous life wife and details (I could provide hundreds of details of my current life that can not be known by anyone than me)
Apparently there have been a few cases where someone remembered vivid details that could only be known by the previous spouse, as you say. Skeptics just bluff that off too, saying it must have been researched. In one case the man making those claims was even accepted by the descendants of the other family as a "new" family members and he attends their reunions, etc.

I can't even remember my credit card numbers in this life, how am I supposed to remember the ones from a past life? :tongue:

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Circle5 » Mon Jun 05, 2017 2:26 am

In order to know what happens with consciousness after death, one first needs to know through what mechanism consciousness originated. If one does not know that mechanism, then he can never know if it will originate again through the same mechanism (the he does not know) or not. And today in 2017, the mystery of origination of consciousness has not been solved and is called "the hard problem of consciousness". More than this, materialism has been refuted through numerous scientific discoveries.

Understanding rebirth is one of the difficult parts of buddhism that requires first understanding other things such as no-self, how the 5 aggregates work and many more. But even for a random not knowing anything about buddhism, rebirth should be the natural, most plausible expectation. Just like you appeared in this life, you will appear again in the future through the same mechanism. Dreamily you appeared now, dreamily you will appear again. And because it's the most logical thing to expect, it has been the most popular view in ancient times at the beginning of first religions. And it is still a popular view today, about 30% of europeans believing in rebirth no matter if the country is strongly christian or strongly atheist.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Luca123 » Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:26 am

David N. Snyder wrote:
Apparently there have been a few cases where someone remembered vivid details that could only be known by the previous spouse, as you say. Skeptics just bluff that off too, saying it must have been researched. In one case the man making those claims was even accepted by the descendants of the other family as a "new" family members and he attends their reunions, etc.

I can't even remember my credit card numbers in this life, how am I supposed to remember the ones from a past life? :tongue:
"Apparently there have been a few cases"
Well, we do not start on a very secure pace, do we? :)

I mean, there are a long list of monks and even laymen who allegedly have reached stream entry
We should have thousands and thousands of cases in history, even recent history, of people who remember checkable details of their past lives.
I have asked of such people a lot during my trips in thai and sri lanka and what happened was the following:

Step 1 "yes, there are few cases of people who remember of their past lives, I know some of them personally"
Step 2 "yes, there are a few cases, I am talking with a person who knows them I will let you know soon"
Step 3 'actually, my contact who knows them is not available at the moment, he will be back tomorrow"
Step 4 (with angry voice) "leave me alone, are you stalking me? I have no intention to convince you, why do not you leave me alone?"

Already seen multiple times

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Luca123 » Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:31 am

Circle5 wrote:In order to know what happens with consciousness after death, one first needs to know through what mechanism consciousness originated. If one does not know that mechanism, then he can never know if it will originate again through the same mechanism (the he does not know) or not. And today in 2017, the mystery of origination of consciousness has not been solved and is called "the hard problem of consciousness". More than this, materialism has been refuted through numerous scientific discoveries.

Understanding rebirth is one of the difficult parts of buddhism that requires first understanding other things such as no-self, how the 5 aggregates work and many more. But even for a random not knowing anything about buddhism, rebirth should be the natural, most plausible expectation. Just like you appeared in this life, you will appear again in the future through the same mechanism. Dreamily you appeared now, dreamily you will appear again. And because it's the most logical thing to expect, it has been the most popular view in ancient times at the beginning of first religions. And it is still a popular view today, about 30% of europeans believing in rebirth no matter if the country is strongly christian or strongly atheist.
If we follow the number of people who believe in this or that, we should all be Christians apparently

Christianity 2.2 billion[3] 31.50%
Islam 1.6 billion[4] 22.32%
Secular[a]/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist ≤1.1 billion 15.35%
Hinduism 1 billion 13.95%
Chinese traditional religion[c] 394 million 5.50%
Buddhism 376 million 5.25%

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Dinsdale » Thu Jun 15, 2017 8:36 am

I was looking again recently at the idea of moment-to-moment rebirth. I can see why it's a popular alternative, but does it really hold up under close examination? I'm not convinced that it does.

What is actually supposed to be "reborn" moment-to-moment? You could say that habits or tendencies are continually reborn, but by definition those persist over time, so saying they are "reborn" doesn't really make sense. You could say that "I" is continually reborn, but in the suttas the fetters of self-view and conceit look like deep-seated habits, and so the same problem applies.

Looking at the anatta doctrine, you could say we are processes rather than entities, but that means there is really nothing to be "reborn".

Also I see very little support for moment-to-moment rebirth in the suttas, where birth and death are invariably described as physical rather than purely mental events.

By the way, I'm not arguing in favour of post-mortem rebirth here. I am suggesting that many of the same difficulties apply to moment-to-moment rebirth, and that these difficulties are too often glossed over for the sake of convenience.

Your thoughts?
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by justindesilva » Fri Jun 16, 2017 3:32 pm

chownah wrote:
justindesilva wrote:This book is widely accepted. ........

His studies had been widely accepted ........
The book has also been widely rejected.
His studies have also been widely rejected.
chownah
If you type "rebirth stories of sri lanka" one can get webs describing many proven or studied cases in Sri Lanka of re births. Please try.

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by justindesilva » Fri Jun 16, 2017 4:05 pm

Also please read : rebirth
http://www.godwin-home-page.net
This relates some interesting and investigated re birth cases.

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Unexist » Fri Sep 15, 2017 3:43 pm

Search only proceeds with faith in words of enlightened. The main goal of all the saint are to remove the shackles of birth and death.

When he searches and found out that "I never exists". So how can which doesn't exist will have death n birth. But these wisdom only come after awakening. Hence, delusion is the common mans thinking and he revolve like there is no other world, no rebirth, let's eat n marry tomorrow we die. Death is all for them.

But for wise death is most precious of all! While common man fear for it!

Now it's your thinking whether you accept it or not!

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by justindesilva » Wed Oct 11, 2017 7:30 am

Unexist wrote:
Fri Sep 15, 2017 3:43 pm
Search only proceeds with faith in words of enlightened. The main goal of all the saint are to remove the shackles of birth and death.

When he searches and found out that "I never exists". So how can which doesn't exist will have death n birth. But these wisdom only come after awakening. Hence, delusion is the common mans thinking and he revolve like there is no other world, no rebirth, let's eat n marry tomorrow we die. Death is all for them.

But for wise death is most precious of all! While common man fear for it!

Now it's your thinking whether you accept it or not!
The need to understand sammuti sacca against Parramatta satta is essential to understand what Lord budda preached in context with our present mode of living and damma.

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Lucas Oliveira » Tue Nov 07, 2017 9:11 pm

Evidence of Reincarnation in Childhood by Dr. Jim Tucker (Full Presentation)

I participate in this forum using Google Translator. http://translate.google.com.br

http://www.acessoaoinsight.net/

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by chownah » Sun Nov 12, 2017 2:26 am

Lucas Oliveira wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 9:11 pm
Evidence of Reincarnation in Childhood by Dr. Jim Tucker (Full Presentation)

xxxxxxxhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=La8vG4mA0is
.....but this isn't evidence for rebirth.....it is evidence for spiritual channeling.....these people are channeling the ghosts of the dead.....I guess....don't know for sure....
chownah

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by cappuccino » Sun Nov 19, 2017 12:45 pm

although we are reborn, we are not everything we once were,
we are something recent

although we are recent, we will not remain as we are,
we will change

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by chownah » Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:19 am

justindesilva wrote:
Fri Jun 16, 2017 3:32 pm
chownah wrote:
justindesilva wrote:This book is widely accepted. ........

His studies had been widely accepted ........
The book has also been widely rejected.
His studies have also been widely rejected.
chownah
If you type "rebirth stories of sri lanka" one can get webs describing many proven or studied cases in Sri Lanka of re births. Please try.
.....but this isn't evidence for rebirth.....it is evidence for spiritual channeling.....these stories are about channeling the ghosts of the dead.....I guess....don't know for sure....
chownah

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