the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Alex123
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Re: What is rebirth?

Post by Alex123 » Wed Sep 30, 2015 10:19 pm

SarathW wrote:Too much investigation in to rebirth (next life) come under the unskilful act of, "Who I was, Who I am, Who I will be" etc.

:redherring:

The question is how does memory, mental qualities, 24 paccayas, etc, transfer from one life to another. Nothing to do with Atman which doesn't exist.
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

freedom
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Re: What is rebirth?

Post by freedom » Wed Sep 30, 2015 10:38 pm

Alex123 wrote:
freedom wrote: Do you agree that the information can carry over without requiring a brain?
It depends on the kind of information we are talking about. Human personality and mental qualities requires a brain.


freedom wrote: Look at DNA, do you see how the information is stored without requiring a brain? Do you see the patterns in DNA?
Brain is MUCH more complex than a single cell that we can see split in two. Something which doesn't happen in case of human rebirth.
freedom wrote: When a brain is damaged, the information in that brain area is damaged. (Just like your computer's hard drive area is damaged). But if you can copy this information before the hard drive is damaged or from some backup areas , then you can retain the information and throw away the old one.
How is this information is copied from one brain to another? We don't see any physical link between a person who died, in one place and reborn in another place which could be very far away.

freedom wrote: How do you know that the body does not have other methods to store information? (Like store them in DNA or somewhere else also?)
Due to research of brain damage and its invariable mental result.
freedom wrote: Like I have said, we do not know all about memory. There may be many other possibilities...
But we know enough to question how can memory, personality, etc, be transferred.
I do not try to convince you. It's up to you to investigate this with an open mind.
To me, I do not see the different in information. A complex picture and a number has the same information base (They are just 0 and 1 patterns). Information does not need to store just in a brain (We can see it is in the DNA). As we see above, the new being still has all five aggregates which means it may have a body (just with different material than we know and the transferred information can be stored in its new "brain" and/or somewhere else).

When a person died, the separation does not take place immediately. This is a gradual process. The old one still there while the new one is created (Just like the cell division). Of course, I do not say that the dying process is completely the same with the cell division (Just to get an idea how the information is copied).
One should not be negligent of discernment, should guard the truth, be devoted to relinquishment, and train only for calm - MN 140.

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Re: What is rebirth?

Post by freedom » Wed Sep 30, 2015 10:50 pm

Alex123 wrote: How is this information is copied from one brain to another? We don't see any physical link between a person who died, in one place and reborn in another place which could be very far away.
To answer this question, when a person A is dying, the copy process takes place and B is created (At this time A and B is connected. B is only separated from A when A is completely dead). B is not a person with flesh and bone. However, B has all 5 aggregates. B can go to hell, to a womb, to heaven depends on his/her kamma. If B will be born again as a human, then B will need 3 conditions (see above).

B lives in a dimension that has no time and space restricted like we do here. We cannot see B.

Added: (At this time A and B is connected. B is only separated from A when A is completely dead)
One should not be negligent of discernment, should guard the truth, be devoted to relinquishment, and train only for calm - MN 140.

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DNS
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Re: What is rebirth?

Post by DNS » Wed Sep 30, 2015 11:46 pm

Alex123 wrote: We don't see any physical link between a person who died, in one place and reborn in another place which could be very far away.
Therein lies the problem. If one looks for a physical link, one will not find one. Rebirth is not a physical, material link. There is no physical element which goes from one body to another. This is not a problem for Buddhism since the Buddha taught anatta. He did not state that the aggregates are permanent and went to great lengths to show they are impermanent. In any event, there is no way to prove rebirth by either the physical material or the immaterial.
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:There is no point repeating the Great Rebirth Debate again.
Please read the references given already and try to understand the Buddha's teaching.
I agree, this is just turning into another rebirth debate and probably will be merged with that.

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Alex123
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Re: What is rebirth?

Post by Alex123 » Wed Sep 30, 2015 11:52 pm

David N. Snyder wrote:Therein lies the problem. If one looks for a physical link, one will not find one. Rebirth is not a physical, material link. There is no physical element which goes from one body to another.
But if consciousness, memory, mental skills, etc, depends on physical - then new birth is new birth rather than rebirth.
David N. Snyder wrote: He did not state that the aggregates are permanent and went to great lengths to show they are impermanent. In any event, there is no way to prove rebirth by either the physical material or the immaterial.
Impermanence doesn't mean that the process has to continue after death.
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Alex123
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Re: What is rebirth?

Post by Alex123 » Wed Sep 30, 2015 11:53 pm

freedom wrote:
Alex123 wrote: How is this information is copied from one brain to another? We don't see any physical link between a person who died, in one place and reborn in another place which could be very far away.
To answer this question, when a person A is dying, the copy process takes place and B is created (At this time A and B is connected. B is only separated from A when A is completely dead). B is not a person with flesh and bone.
Exactly how this "copy process" can be proven?
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

freedom
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Re: What is rebirth?

Post by freedom » Thu Oct 01, 2015 1:00 am

Alex123 wrote: Exactly how this "copy process" can be proven?
If we look deep into a brain, we see brain cells are continuously died and recreated. Information that are stored in these cells are regularly copied from the old ones to the new ones, and are stored in various places. This copying process is continuously happening in our body.

Information is not stored in one place only. If we know how we can hot swap a failed hard drive in a disk array, we will see that lost information in one area can be recreated from other areas. Our memory's storage is even much more sophisticated than this computer's disk array.
One should not be negligent of discernment, should guard the truth, be devoted to relinquishment, and train only for calm - MN 140.

freedom
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Re: What is rebirth?

Post by freedom » Thu Oct 01, 2015 1:13 am

Alex123 wrote: But if consciousness, memory, mental skills, etc, depends on physical - then new birth is new birth rather than rebirth.
This is called rebirth because it is not the same with reincarnation. Moreover, the new one has all the information (kamma...) of the old one. The new one is not the old one, but they are not different.
One should not be negligent of discernment, should guard the truth, be devoted to relinquishment, and train only for calm - MN 140.

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Alex123
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Re: What is rebirth?

Post by Alex123 » Thu Oct 01, 2015 1:49 am

freedom wrote: If we look deep into a brain, we see brain cells are continuously died and recreated. Information that are stored in these cells are regularly copied from the old ones to the new ones, and are stored in various places. This copying process is continuously happening in our body.
We can see that (in one person, in super close proximity), sure. But we do not see and do not have explanatory mechanism of how this happens across different people and across very vast spaces.
freedom wrote: Information is not stored in one place only. If we know how we can hot swap a failed hard drive in a disk array, we will see that lost information in one area can be recreated from other areas. Our memory's storage is even much more sophisticated than this computer's disk array.
If that happened, science would be able to see this carry over. Unfortunately, right now this can't be seen.
freedom wrote:
Alex123 wrote: But if consciousness, memory, mental skills, etc, depends on physical - then new birth is new birth rather than rebirth.
This is called rebirth because it is not the same with reincarnation. Moreover, the new one has all the information (kamma...) of the old one. The new one is not the old one, but they are not different.
We do not see the child having all the information from the previous life. It seems that an infant has to learn almost everything a new, as if one never knew it...
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

freedom
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Re: What is rebirth?

Post by freedom » Thu Oct 01, 2015 2:33 am

Alex123 wrote: We can see that (in one person, in super close proximity), sure. But we do not see and do not have explanatory mechanism of how this happens across different people and across very vast spaces.
As I have said, the copying process does not happen across very vast spaces. The new copy is right there and connected to the old one when it happened. However, the new one is mostly information (data), therefore, it could be transferred as the speed of thought or the speed of light after it is separated from the old one.
Alex123 wrote: If that happened, science would be able to see this carry over. Unfortunately, right now this can't be seen.
Before Einstein found theory of relativity, no one knew that or accept that, but it does not mean that it is wrong. Now with quantum physics, we can see new weird stuffs that we never believe them before ...
Alex123 wrote: We do not see the child having all the information from the previous life. It seems that an infant has to learn almost everything a new, as if one never knew it...
There are many children who can remember their past lives. Just make a simple search in Google and you can see a lot of information.
One should not be negligent of discernment, should guard the truth, be devoted to relinquishment, and train only for calm - MN 140.

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rowboat
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Re: What is rebirth?

Post by rowboat » Thu Oct 01, 2015 2:46 am

Alex123 wrote: We do not see the child having all the information from the previous life. It seems that an infant has to learn almost everything a new, as if one never knew it...
Hi Alex. With all due respect, I think it would really benefit you to put your doubts aside for a while and redouble your efforts in developing concentration. Remember that skeptical doubt is a Hindrance, and as such, it has its own appropriate antidotes.
Rain soddens what is covered up,
It does not sodden what is open.
Therefore uncover what is covered
That the rain will not sodden it.
Ud 5.5

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Ben
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Re: What is rebirth?

Post by Ben » Thu Oct 01, 2015 4:29 am

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:There is no point repeating the Great Rebirth Debate again.

Please read the references given already and try to understand the Buddha's teaching.
This is excellent advice by Venerable Pesala. I suggest one should read the links generously given by Bhante and if one is interested in debating the nature of rebirth then please join the discussion on the Great Rebirth Debate.
Kind regards,
Ben
Last edited by DNS on Thu Oct 08, 2015 4:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: post not edited, just a note that this topic merged with the great rebirth thread, since it is the same topic
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by dxm_dxm » Mon Oct 19, 2015 2:17 pm

By method of induction, I was able to find out laws of rebirth not known by many people and enlighten you all. They are:

1. The law of karmma always works exponentialy.
2. The law of karmma always works in spectacular and ironic ways.
3. The law of karmma make people be reborn very close to where they lived before.
4. The form of your next rebirth depends very much on a specific random thought or action you have done in this life. Maybe the other 99,999% also count in defining the level of happiness but the specific form of your rebirth depends on a specific random thought or action. And it always has to be ironical, cynical
5. A strange or evil random, unintended OCD thought has the power to determine your next rebirth. This is because OCD random thoughts are due to past karmma that has now come to fruition. (20% of people suffer from OCD and from time to time have strange or evil thoughts pop up in their heads. Even if they do not come up with intention and are never acted upon, it seems that there is a problem)
6. A random, unintended OCD thought even has the power to transform your present body into something else if the thought that pops up involves an advanced monk.
7. The state of mind one has at the moment of death is not only more important that everything that you did in this life, but at least the next imidiate rebirth depends 100% on it.

Reading them carefully, maybe you have noticed point 7 get's in contradiction with point 4. It is beyond me too. If you want to find out how I came with these inductions feel free to check my topic at http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=24082" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Is this right view or wrong view ?

Expedient Means
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Expedient Means » Sat Nov 28, 2015 8:08 pm

Hi everyone, why is it that the thread has changed into "what is rebirth"? Has the discussion around the rebirth debate ceased or evolved? I wish to ask some questions around the original debate, however some users are being referred back to the debate thread, but I thought this was it? :thinking:

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by mikenz66 » Sat Nov 28, 2015 8:39 pm

Hi Expedient Means,

We periodically merge rebirth threads into this one, which would explain your confusion. Feel free to discuss anything about rebirth here...

:anjali:
Mike

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