the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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clw_uk
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by clw_uk » Sun May 24, 2009 1:30 pm

Hey
Let's see here. If I were to walk up to you and slug you in the face, of course, there is no one going to feel pain, no one is going to bleed, no one is going to be angry because of a few missing teeth.The idea of missing teeth, pain, anger and kamma is just ignorant view that violates the natural truth.
How so?

What the Buddha showed is that there is no unchanging person that gets reborn.
Well we know this is where we part ways

Is an illusion?

Is? The Buddha says that where?
Whats your problem with the word is?
You still have not answered my earlier points
You will have to state them again, i dont have time to shift through all the posts to see what is left unanswered

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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings » Sun May 24, 2009 3:53 pm

Again, another avoidance of answering questions put to you, Craig.
How so?
It follows from your statement about rebirth.
Well we know this is where we part ways
And this is where you part ways from the Buddha's teachings, as you have been shown.
Whats your problem with the word is?
Show us where the Buddha said that self is an illusion. My guess is that that you do not understand what the word means or what the Buddha's teachings on this subject actually are.
You will have to state them again, i dont have time to shift through all the posts to see what is left unanswered
Of course you don't, which is a as good a dodge as you can come up with.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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clw_uk
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by clw_uk » Sun May 24, 2009 4:13 pm

Again, another avoidance of answering questions put to you, Craig.
:roll:

And this is where you part ways from the Buddha's teachings, as you have been shown.
:roll:

I have stated that the Buddhas teachings are about dukkha and removing dukkha. I practice to understand and remove dukkha so unless im very mistaken about what buddhadhamma teaches i cant see how i have strayed from buddhadhamma at all
Show us where the Buddha said that self is an illusion. My guess is that that you do not understand what the word means or what the Buddha's teachings on this subject actually are.
He doesnt say so in those words and i never said "the buddha says that self is an illusion", its something i interpreted since it fits with my understanding of anatta and voidness. If you think "this is mine" or "this is me" then this is an ignorant illusion IMU

You will have to state them again, i dont have time to shift through all the posts to see what is left unanswered

Of course you don't, which is a as good a dodge as you can come up with.
believe me or dont believe me it makes little difference to me :roll:

Let's see here. If I were to walk up to you and slug you in the face, of course, there is no one going to feel pain, no one is going to bleed, no one is going to be angry because of a few missing teeth.The idea of missing teeth, pain, anger and kamma is just ignorant view that violates the natural truth.
If you say "my teeth, my blood, my anger, my pain" that is ignorance that violates the natural truth. If i say "my teeth" or "my pain" that is clinging, in reality there is just teeth, just blood, just anger, just pain. This is the truth and the correct way to practice through non-identification.

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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings » Sun May 24, 2009 4:49 pm

Craig: I have stated that the Buddhas teachings are about dukkha and removing dukkha. I practice to understand and remove dukkha so unless im very mistaken about what buddhadhamma teaches i cant see how i have strayed from buddhadhamma at all
That you cannot see it, though it has been carefully pointed out to you by individuals far more learned than you says something (about you).
He doesnt say so in those words and i never said "the buddha says that self is an illusion", its something i interpreted since it fits with my understanding of anatta and voidness. If you think "this is mine" or "this is me" then this is an ignorant illusion being created IMU
What you said (and what I quoted in bold): The buddha shows throughout all of his central teachings that there is no person to get reborn, the sense of person or "I am" or self is just an ignorant illusion,

And of course, you repeat it in your denial that you said it. It is something you interpreted that misses a serious point of the Buddha’s teachings. You really do not see it, do you?
believe me or dont believe me it makes little difference to me
I am not surprised, since nothing seem to count against your “true belief,” even when what is presented directly contradicts your statements, and your response to such things has been simply to pretend that it hasn’t been said.
say "my teeth, my blood, my anger, my pain" that is ignorance that violates the natural truth. If i say "my teeth" or "my pain" that is clinging, in reality there is just teeth, just blood, just anger, just pain. This is the truth and the correct way to practice through non-identification.
So, it then does not matter what I do to you, because as long as I do not identify with it, I am acting in accord with your notion of “natural truth.” So much for kamma, so much for the Buddha’s teachings.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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clw_uk
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by clw_uk » Sun May 24, 2009 6:38 pm

Craig: I have stated that the Buddhas teachings are about dukkha and removing dukkha. I practice to understand and remove dukkha so unless im very mistaken about what buddhadhamma teaches i cant see how i have strayed from buddhadhamma at all

Tilt - That you cannot see it, though it has been carefully pointed out to you by individuals far more learned than you says something (about you).
The buddhas teachings are about dukkha and its removal, that how i practice. Please tell me where this is wrong tilt since this is actualy all i have been putting forward

What you said (and what I quoted in bold): The buddha shows throughout all of his central teachings that there is no person to get reborn, the sense of person or "I am" or self is just an ignorant illusion,

And of course, you repeat it in your denial that you said it. It is something you interpreted that misses a serious point of the Buddha’s teachings. You really do not see it, do you?
Im afraid i dont you will have to come out and say it

Craig - believe me or dont believe me it makes little difference to me

tilt - I am not surprised, since nothing seem to count against your “true belief,” even when what is presented directly contradicts your statements, and your response to such things has been simply to pretend that it hasn’t been said.
My above sentence was in response to you not believing me that i dont have time to go through every post, it had nothing to do with the current topic

I could just as easily respond back by saying that nothing seems to count against your "true belief" even when what is presented directly contradicts your statements

Some people see things your way (with rebirth) and some people dont, to me Buddhahdamma doesnt have or need rebirth and to you it does
So, it then does not matter what I do to you, because as long as I do not identify with it, I am acting in accord with your notion of “natural truth.” So much for kamma, so much for the Buddha’s teachings.
If you did attack me that would come out of ignorance, greed or hatred and would be unwholesome kamma for "you" and dukkha. If one has removed all thoughts of self and conceit, has no identification with anything then there is no ignorance greed or hatred and no such act would occur on your part. If one has no identification with anything and so understands anatta completely then there would be no acts of violence

If you did attack be then it would be unwholesome for "you", if i have true wisdom however there would be no anger, hate, dukkha or anything of the sort on "my" part as there is no such defilements in one who sees

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Guy
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Guy » Sun May 24, 2009 11:23 pm

Here is one example of why I believe that rebirth and kamma are central themes of the Buddha's teaching and how they relate directly to our beliefs and actions in the here and now. Also, it's possible that the Buddha didn't teach about rebirth to everyone since it might not have been the most relevant issue to that particular person at the time.

With Metta,

Guy
Four types of letting go:

1) Giving; expecting nothing back in return
2) Throwing things away
3) Contentment; wanting to be here, not wanting to be anywhere else
4) "Teflon Mind"; having a mind which doesn't accumulate things

- Ajahn Brahm

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by DarkDream » Wed Jun 10, 2009 6:23 am

Guy wrote:Here is one example of why I believe that rebirth and kamma are central themes of the Buddha's teaching and how they relate directly to our beliefs and actions in the here and now.
I've noticed the "The Dog-duty Ascetic" sutta is a sutta that is mentioned commonly by those who want to say that the Buddha taught literal rebirth. I finally got a chance to write a short essay on this to show that it does not lead to the firm conclusion that the Buddha taught literal rebirth. For those who are interested, you can find it on my blog at:

http://dreamwhitehorses.blogspot.com/20 ... art-i.html

DarkDream

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Re: Accepting Rebirth

Post by pink_trike » Wed Jun 10, 2009 7:39 am

Hello All,

This too might be useful.

Essential points of the Buddhist teachings by Buddhadasa Bhikkhu - Buddhadasa Bhikkhu

The Buddha refused to have any dealings with those things which don't lead to the extinction of Dukkha. Take the question of whether or not there is rebirth. What is reborn? How is it reborn? What is its kammic inheritance? (kamma-is volitional action by means of body, speech or mind.) These questions are not aimed at the extinction of Dukkha. That being so, they are not Buddhist teaching and they are not connected with it. They do not lie in the sphere of Buddhism. Also, one who asks about such matters has no choice but to indiscriminately believe the answer he is given, because the one who answers is not going to be able to produce any proofs, he's just going to speak according to his memory and feeling. The listener can't see for himself and so has to blindly believe the other's words. Little by little the matter strays from Dhamma until its something else altogether, unconnected with the extinction of Dukkha.
http://www.dharmaweb.org/index.php/Esse ... sa_Bhikkhu" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.

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tiltbillings
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Re: Accepting Rebirth

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Jun 10, 2009 7:47 am

pink_trike wrote:Hello All,

This too might be useful.

Essential points of the Buddhist teachings by Buddhadasa Bhikkhu - Buddhadasa Bhikkhu

The Buddha refused to have any dealings with those things which don't lead to the extinction of Dukkha. Take the question of whether or not there is rebirth....These questions are not aimed at the extinction of Dukkha.
Interesting claim. Show us the text that states the Buddha clearly and overtly refused to say that there was rebirth.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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pink_trike
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Re: Accepting Rebirth

Post by pink_trike » Wed Jun 10, 2009 8:28 am

tiltbillings wrote:
pink_trike wrote:Hello All,

This too might be useful.

Essential points of the Buddhist teachings by Buddhadasa Bhikkhu - Buddhadasa Bhikkhu

The Buddha refused to have any dealings with those things which don't lead to the extinction of Dukkha. Take the question of whether or not there is rebirth....These questions are not aimed at the extinction of Dukkha.
Interesting claim. Show us the text that states the Buddha clearly and overtly refused to say that there was rebirth.
I'll trust Buddhadasa Bhikku's word. Perhaps if you read more of Buddhadasa Bhikku's writings you'll learn more about it.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.

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clw_uk
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Re: Accepting Rebirth

Post by clw_uk » Wed Jun 10, 2009 8:31 am

tiltbillings wrote:
pink_trike wrote:Hello All,

This too might be useful.

Essential points of the Buddhist teachings by Buddhadasa Bhikkhu - Buddhadasa Bhikkhu

The Buddha refused to have any dealings with those things which don't lead to the extinction of Dukkha. Take the question of whether or not there is rebirth....These questions are not aimed at the extinction of Dukkha.
Interesting claim. Show us the text that states the Buddha clearly and overtly refused to say that there was rebirth.

Wont this be going into a repeat of the Great rebirth debate?
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tiltbillings
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Re: Accepting Rebirth

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Jun 10, 2009 8:35 am

clw_uk wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
pink_trike wrote:Hello All,

This too might be useful.

Essential points of the Buddhist teachings by Buddhadasa Bhikkhu - Buddhadasa Bhikkhu

The Buddha refused to have any dealings with those things which don't lead to the extinction of Dukkha. Take the question of whether or not there is rebirth....These questions are not aimed at the extinction of Dukkha.
Interesting claim. Show us the text that states the Buddha clearly and overtly refused to say that there was rebirth.

Wont this be going into a repeat of the Great rebirth debate?
If you want to respond to this, you know where to post it.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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tiltbillings
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Re: Accepting Rebirth

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Jun 10, 2009 8:36 am

pink_trike wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
pink_trike wrote:Hello All,

This too might be useful.

Essential points of the Buddhist teachings by Buddhadasa Bhikkhu - Buddhadasa Bhikkhu

The Buddha refused to have any dealings with those things which don't lead to the extinction of Dukkha. Take the question of whether or not there is rebirth....These questions are not aimed at the extinction of Dukkha.
Interesting claim. Show us the text that states the Buddha clearly and overtly refused to say that there was rebirth.
I'll trust Buddhadasa Bhikku's word. Perhaps if you read more of Buddhadasa Bhikku's writings you'll learn more about it.
I have read enough to know that it is spin, not a reference to an actual text, which is no surprise.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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clw_uk
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by clw_uk » Wed Jun 10, 2009 8:42 am

In the "accepting rebirth" thread this question was raised

Interesting claim. Show us the text that states the Buddha clearly and overtly refused to say that there was rebirth

This is going to be a copy of a post i made at buddhismwithoutboundries.com since im writting this just before work


A main argument i have against rebirth being part of the teachings is

A) The Buddha refused to give metaphysical answers to people

B) The Buddha taught a doctrine that is immediately applicable, logical, practical, a doctrine that doesnt depend on blind belief

Rebirth view is a view that requires blind belief, it isnt really that practical and isnt all that logical when compared to the rest of the teachings

For example there are discussions in a sutta about how a couple could ensure that they are reunited after death, now obviously this sutta is not in accord with Buddhadhamma, if the buddha did infact teach this sutta then he is obviously teaching the couple a morality in terms that would fit them best

On the metaphysical side, take the suttas that discuss all those cycles of universe birth and death, the lives of the people there, how the gods came to be and how people came to be and all the rest of the metaphysical content of the pali canon and mahayana canon, how can these things be considered part of Buddhadhamma when the Buddha refused to engage in discussions on metaphysics because he considered it pointless since one would never reach the true answer

A good way to think about this is to take into account what the buddha says in the parable of the arrow and compare it to the teachings of rebirth that we have today
""Malunkyaputta, did I ever say to you, 'Come, Malunkyaputta, live the holy life under me, and I will declare to you that 'The cosmos is eternal,' or 'The cosmos is not eternal,' or 'The cosmos is finite,' or 'The cosmos is infinite,' or 'The soul & the body are the same,' or 'The soul is one thing and the body another,' or 'After death a Tathagata exists,' or 'After death a Tathagata does not exist,' or 'After death a Tathagata both exists & does not exist,' or 'After death a Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist'?"

"No, lord."

<Snip>

"So, Malunkyaputta, remember what is undeclared by me as undeclared, and what is declared by me as declared. And what is undeclared by me? 'The cosmos is eternal,' is undeclared by me. 'The cosmos is not eternal,' is undeclared by me. 'The cosmos is finite'... 'The cosmos is infinite'... 'The soul & the body are the same'... 'The soul is one thing and the body another'... 'After death a Tathagata exists'... 'After death a Tathagata does not exist'... 'After death a Tathagata both exists & does not exist'... 'After death a Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist,' is undeclared by me.

"And why are they undeclared by me? Because they are not connected with the goal, are not fundamental to the holy life. They do not lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, calming, direct knowledge, self-awakening, Unbinding. That's why they are undeclared by me.

"And what is declared by me? 'This is stress,' is declared by me. 'This is the origination of stress,' is declared by me. 'This is the cessation of stress,' is declared by me. 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress,' is declared by me. And why are they declared by me? Because they are connected with the goal, are fundamental to the holy life. They lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, calming, direct knowledge, self-awakening, Unbinding. That's why they are declared by me.

"So, Malunkyaputta, remember what is undeclared by me as undeclared, and what is declared by me as declared."


Now a main argument is that these relate to speculative views about the illusional self, but thats forgetting this line

'The cosmos is eternal,' is undeclared by me
The Buddha states that he doesnt give answers to metaphysical questions. Some people do argue that the passage relates to views about the self but that ignores this line

'The cosmos is eternal,' is undeclared by me

If you have rebirth view, then the cosmos is eternal. How many teachers that teach rebirth view also teach that the universe is eternal, despite the fact that this is a speculative view, one among many metaphysical views that the buddha refused to answer. Lets not forget that the Buddha said

"If there is the view that the cosmos is eternal, there can be no living of the holy life" (same for all other metaphysical specualtive views)



Hold rebirth view, you hold a speculative view, you dont/cant live the true holy life IMO


Regardless if there is rebirth or not, regardless of what may or may not happen after death, there is dukkha right now, there is birth, ageing, sickness, death, despair here and now, that which the buddha teaches the ending of right now



All the best
Craig
Last edited by clw_uk on Wed Jun 10, 2009 8:49 am, edited 2 times in total.
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Jun 10, 2009 8:45 am

So, in other words Buddhadada's claim hold no water. Not surprised.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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