Theravada if it includes Buddhaghosa is schismatic

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Theravada if it includes Buddhaghosa is schismatic

Post by Ceisiwr »

rhinoceroshorn
It seems you don't seek advice, but whole guidance of them. You are basically replacing the Buddha as your major guide for the commentarists like Budagousa.
Well firstly, as explained before, Ven. Buddhaghosa did not write the commentaries. They are way older, going back to the 3rd Council if not before. Moving on from that, I do seek guidance from the commentaries. They are the explanations of the Dhamma that come from ancient Theras. Why wouldn't I take them seriously? Only a foolish man would ignore them. That being said, the commentaries do not replace the suttas. The suttas are the 1st source of authority. If anything in the commentaries contradicts the suttas then it should be discarded. The commentaries even say this themselves. Perhaps if you actually read them you would get a better appreciation and understanding of them. Very often I find that those who tear down the commentaries and the Visuddhimagga have never even read them, or have read a couple of pages and left it at that.
"Analysis and synthesis are praised by the wise,
liberation in the Sāsana comes from analysis and synthesis;
the purpose of the method of analysis and synthesis is the ultimate"


Nāmarūpapariccheda
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rhinoceroshorn
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Re: Theravada if it includes Buddhaghosa is schismatic

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:09 pm rhinoceroshorn
It seems you don't seek advice, but whole guidance of them. You are basically replacing the Buddha as your major guide for the commentarists like Budagousa.
Well firstly, as explained before, Ven. Buddhaghosa did not write the commentaries. They are way older, going back to the 3rd Council if not before. Moving on from that, I do seek guidance from the commentaries. They are the explanations of the Dhamma that come from ancient Theras. Why wouldn't I take them seriously? Only a foolish man would ignore them. That being said, the commentaries do not replace the suttas. The suttas are the 1st source of authority. If anything in the commentaries contradicts the suttas then it should be discarded. The commentaries even say this themselves. Perhaps if you actually read them you would get a better appreciation and understanding of them. Very often I find that those who tear down the commentaries and the Visuddhimagga have never even read them, or have read a couple of pages and left it at that.
No, I'm fine with the suttas. I know what is the right path.
Be well.
Without resistance in all four directions,
content with whatever you get,
enduring troubles with no dismay,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
Image
But if they hit you with a stick...?"
"...I will think, 'These people are very civilized, in that they don't hit me with a knife.'..."
"But if they hit you with a knife...?"
"...I will think, 'These people are very civilized, in that they don't take my life with a sharp knife.'..."
SN35.88
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samseva
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Re: Theravada if it includes Buddhaghosa is schismatic

Post by samseva »

greenjuice wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:12 am Where did Leigh write that? I googled it and there is literally no place on the internet with that senstance except this page of the forum.
Even if he did write this, it doesnt say there that there is thinking in the jhanas, it says "next thing", so, it obviously refers to exiting the jhanas.

On the other hand, I know Leigh talks about how there are no distracting thoughts in the jhanas.
He literally says it in the video I posted, along with the transcript:
Leigh Brasington wrote: It's very subtle. All of these states, there's the object, say the contentment of the third, and your one-pointed focus. And you might wobble a bit, right, you drift off into a thought and the contentment doesn't immediately disappear. You drift off into a thought and it starts to go away. You've come out, but whoops, you're back there, right? So you reestablish it. You can even do that in seven, right? [inaudible]. In eight, you might have time for one simple sentence that doesn't contain the words 'me', 'my' or 'I'. Right? It's really fragile.

I couldn't tell you the number of times, I'm there, I'm solidly in the eighth jhāna and then the next thing I know I'm in the middle of some paragraph of distraction. There's no trace of the eighth jhāna left. It's a very subtle state."
https://youtu.be/RCLT64SLYZk?t=2924
greenjuice wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:12 am [...] but obviously some people are attached to other other interpretation of the jhanas (which they themselves never entered) so much that they have a need to disparage people who disagree. Which btw Leigh doesnt do
Access-concentration (upacāra-samādhi) is very common.
Last edited by samseva on Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:11 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Theravada if it includes Buddhaghosa is schismatic

Post by samseva »

rightviewftw wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:38 am I think the standard theravada interpretation based on the sutta and which is expounded in the abhidhamma is that both 'light jhana [vipassanajhana]' and the 'hard [vsm] jhana' are a thing, the semantic range of abhidhamma 'jhana [states that are good]' is even broader than 'light jhana/vipassanajhana+lights & stuff' and rightly so because sutta support this (think; 'if he was to develop metta even for as long as a fingersnap he is called one who is not without jhana...'). I think all this is the most simple interpretation of the sutta really. It is as i see it unfortunate that people still get hung up on this controversy.
There is no such thing as "vipassāna-jhana." In fact, in both the Visuddhimagga and the Abhidhamma (as well as the Suttas), one must first emerge from jhāna to practice insight.
17. “Again, bhikkhus, by completely surmounting the base of nothingness, Sāriputta entered upon and abided in the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception.
18. “He emerged mindful from that attainment. Having done so, he contemplated the states that had passed, ceased, and changed, thus: ‘So indeed, these states, not having been, come into being; having been, they vanish.’ Regarding those states, he abided unattracted, unrepelled, independent, detached, free, dissociated, with a mind rid of barriers. He understood: ‘There is an escape beyond,’ and with the cultivation of that [attainment], he confirmed that there is.”
—MN 111 (transl., Bhikkhu Bodhi)
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samseva
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Re: Theravada if it includes Buddhaghosa is schismatic

Post by samseva »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:16 am I think that its worth remembering that Ven. Moggallāna, who was a master of meditation, struggled with even the 1st Jhana.
At one time Venerable Mahāmoggallāna was staying near Sāvatthī in Jeta’s Grove, Anāthapiṇḍika’s monastery. There Venerable Mahāmoggallāna addressed the mendicants: “Reverends, mendicants!”

“Reverend,” they replied. Venerable Mahāmoggallāna said this:

“Just now, reverends, as I was in private retreat this thought came to mind: ‘They speak of this thing called the “first absorption”. What is the first absorption?’ It occurred to me: ‘It’s when a mendicant, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected. This is called the first absorption.’

And so … I was entering and remaining in the first absorption. While I was in that meditation, perceptions and attentions accompanied by sensual pleasures beset me.

Then the Buddha came up to me with his psychic power and said, ‘Moggallāna, Moggallāna! Don’t neglect the first absorption, brahmin! Settle your mind in the first absorption; unify your mind and immerse it in the first absorption.’

And so, after some time … I entered and remained in the first absorption.

So if anyone should be rightly called a disciple who attained to great direct knowledge with help from the Teacher, it’s me.”
https://suttacentral.net/sn40.1/en/sujato
:goodpost: :anjali:

One of the Buddha's most skilled disciples had difficulty attaining jhāna... but many can attain jhāna at a short retreat with Bhante Vimalaramsi and Leigh Brasington?

Wow... by their claims, it would mean they are even more skilled teachers than the Buddha himself! And also that even their brand new students are more skilled than Moggallāna...
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samseva
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Re: Theravada if it includes Buddhaghosa is schismatic

Post by samseva »

frank k wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:41 am Moggallana attained arahantship in either 7 or 14 days after meeting the Buddha.
The suttas describe that two or one week period as "struggling" in comparison to Sariputta.
SN 40 doesn't actually say how long he "struggled" learning first jhana.
So there's a relativity to what you're interpreting as "struggling".
Yes, and many lay people spontaneaously became stream-enterers—and monks spontaneaously became arahants—simply from listening to one discourse by the Buddha. What's your point?
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Theravada if it includes Buddhaghosa is schismatic

Post by Ceisiwr »

Leigh Brasington wrote:

I couldn't tell you the number of times, I'm there, I'm solidly in the eighth jhāna and then the next thing I know I'm in the middle of some paragraph of distraction. There's no trace of the eighth jhāna left. It's a very subtle state."

:shock: :?
"Analysis and synthesis are praised by the wise,
liberation in the Sāsana comes from analysis and synthesis;
the purpose of the method of analysis and synthesis is the ultimate"


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samseva
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Re: Theravada if it includes Buddhaghosa is schismatic

Post by samseva »

BrokenBones wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:11 am There is no need for anyone to be upset :meditate:
I'll continue to delude myself with my imperfect meditation and apparently wanting sila and others can anaesthetise themselves with their perfect meditation and sila.
If you take the same way of thinking as "jhāna-light"... from meditating an hour daily, you'll be able to reach the 4th jhāna, and any of the arūpa-jhāna... in a few days?

...and Enlightenment in a month?*

*("Enlightenment-light," not "Visuddhimagga-style Enlightenment"!)

Woooow... :shock: :shock: :shock:

Again... there's no such thing as "jhāna-light." In the same way that there isn't a "light" version of Enlightenment, there isn't a "light" version of jhāna. Both necessitate a substancial amount of effort and skill...
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Re: Theravada if it includes Buddhaghosa is schismatic

Post by greenjuice »

Leigh:

"In eight, you might have time for one simple sentence that doesn't contain the words 'me', 'my' or 'I'. Right? It's really fragile.
I couldn't tell you the number of times, I'm there, I'm solidly in the eighth jhāna and then the next thing I know I'm in the middle of some paragraph of distraction. There's no trace of the eighth jhāna left."

- So, he is talking about exiting the jhanas. Just after saying this in the video he mentions that only the 1st jhana has background thinking, so, the other jhanas don't have it. And if it appears, that means you are starting to exit the jhanas. And what he said previously (in this quoted part) is that the 8th jhana is the easiest one to exit; he says that in the previous jhanas when one starts to exit them, one can stop this exiting and return to one-pointedly experiencing the jhana, they don't go away instantaneously or quickly once one start to exit them, but that the 8th is different in that once one starts to exit from it, it disappears very quickly. I don't see the problem in this teaching.

"Access-concentration (upacāra-samādhi) is very common."
- Maybe when people go on retreats and get proficient at it by practicing samatha meditation. Otherwise, I've noticed many many people who meditate and who are not proficient at it, I can't count how many times I've given advice to people on how to train oneself in it. Also, one needs to become proficient in access concentration / anchoring of the mind / calming of the mind, and then become proficient in gladdening of the mind, in order to be able to enter jhanas..
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Re: Theravada if it includes Buddhaghosa is schismatic

Post by mikenz66 »

greenjuice wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:12 amobviously some people are attached to other other interpretation of the jhanas (which they themselves never entered) so much that they have a need to disparage people who disagree. ...
What about those who have experiences similar to the lighter interpretations, but are not convinced that it is jhana, and just keep working on the the path? What exactly are they missing out on?

:heart:
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Re: Theravada if it includes Buddhaghosa is schismatic

Post by rightviewftw »

samseva wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:18 pm
rightviewftw wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:38 am I think the standard theravada interpretation based on the sutta and which is expounded in the abhidhamma is that both 'light jhana [vipassanajhana]' and the 'hard [vsm] jhana' are a thing, the semantic range of abhidhamma 'jhana [states that are good]' is even broader than 'light jhana/vipassanajhana+lights & stuff' and rightly so because sutta support this (think; 'if he was to develop metta even for as long as a fingersnap he is called one who is not without jhana...'). I think all this is the most simple interpretation of the sutta really. It is as i see it unfortunate that people still get hung up on this controversy.
There is no such thing as "vipassāna-jhana." In fact, in both the Visuddhimagga and the Abhidhamma (as well as the Suttas), one must first emerge from jhāna to practice insight.
17. “Again, bhikkhus, by completely surmounting the base of nothingness, Sāriputta entered upon and abided in the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception.
18. “He emerged mindful from that attainment. Having done so, he contemplated the states that had passed, ceased, and changed, thus: ‘So indeed, these states, not having been, come into being; having been, they vanish.’ Regarding those states, he abided unattracted, unrepelled, independent, detached, free, dissociated, with a mind rid of barriers. He understood: ‘There is an escape beyond,’ and with the cultivation of that [attainment], he confirmed that there is.”
—MN 111 (transl., Bhikkhu Bodhi)
Here is what i mean by vipassanajhana;

In the Sutta, wholesome joy in general is spoken of in these terms;
"And what are the six kinds of renunciation joy? The joy that arises when — experiencing the inconstancy of those very forms, their change, fading, & cessation — one sees with right discernment as it actually is that all forms, past or present, are inconstant, stressful, subject to change: That is called renunciation joy. (Similarly with sounds, smells, tastes, tactile sensations, & ideas.)
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
This is a broad generalization and applied to many states but a qualifier can be used;
"Let's periodically enter & remain in seclusion & rapture." That's how you should train yourself.'

"Lord, when a disciple of the noble ones enters & remains in seclusion & rapture, there are five possibilities that do not exist at that time: The pain & distress dependent on sensuality do not exist at that time. The pleasure & joy dependent on sensuality do not exist at that time. The pain & distress dependent on what is unskillful do not exist at that time. The pleasure & joy dependent on what is unskillful do not exist at that time. The pain & distress dependent on what is skillful do not exist at that time. When a disciple of the noble ones enters & remains in seclusion & rapture, these five possibilities do not exist at that time."
Also this kinds of pleasure arises in association wih directed development and otherwise;
“Ananda, if a monk or nun remains with mind well-established in the four establishings of mindfulness, he/she may be expected to perceive grand, successive distinctions.

“There is the case of a monk who remains focused on the body in & of itself—ardent, alert, & mindful—subduing greed & distress with reference to the world. As he remains thus focused on the body in & of itself, a fever based on the body arises within his body, or there is sluggishness in his awareness, or his mind becomes scattered externally. He should then direct his mind to any inspiring theme. As his mind is directed to any inspiring theme, delight arises within him. In one who feels delight, rapture arises.

In one whose mind is enraptured, the body grows calm. His body calm, he feels pleasure. As he feels pleasure, his mind grows concentrated.

He reflects, ‘I have attained the aim to which my mind was directed. Let me withdraw [my mind from the inspiring theme].’ He withdraws & engages neither in directed thought nor in evaluation. He
discerns, ‘I am not thinking or evaluating. I am inwardly mindful & at ease.’

“This, Ananda, is development based on directing.

And what is development based on not directing? A monk, when not directing his mind to external things, discerns, ‘My mind is not directed to external
things. It is unconstricted [asankhitta] front & back—released & undirected. And then, I remain focused on the body in & of itself. I am ardent, alert, mindful, & at ease.’
Jhana is a very broad term in the sutta and it's evident by this statement;
"Bhikkhus, if for just the time of a finger snap a bhikkhu pursues a mind of loving-kindness(metta), he is called a bhikkhu who is not devoid of jhana
Or this here;
Having folded my legs crosswise and straightened my body, I establish mindfulness in front of me. Then, secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, I enter and dwell in the first jhāna, which consists of rapture and pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by thought and examination. With the subsiding of thought and examination, I enter and dwell in the second jhāna, which has internal placidity and unification of mind and consists of rapture and pleasure born of concentration, without thought and examination. With the fading away as well of rapture, I dwell equanimous and, mindful and clearly comprehending, I experience pleasure with the body; I enter and dwell in the third jhāna of which the noble ones declare: ‘He is equanimous, mindful, one who dwells happily.’ With the abandoning of pleasure and pain, and with the previous passing away of joy and dejection, I enter and dwell in the fourth jhāna, neither painful nor pleasant, which has purification of mindfulness by equanimity.

9“Then, brahmin, when I am in such a state, if I walk back and forth, on that occasion my walking back and forth is celestial. If I am standing, on that occasion my standing is celestial. If I am sitting, on that occasion my sitting is celestial. If I lie down, on that occasion this is my celestial high and luxurious bed. This is that celestial high and luxurious bed that at present I can gain at will, without trouble or difficulty.”
https://suttacentral.net/an3.63/en/bodhi
Now as to abhidhamma there are these states;
1. When a good thought concerning the sensuous universe has arisen, which is accompanied by happiness and associated with knowledge.

Then Jhana is fivefold; Conception, Discursive Thought, Joy, Ease, Self-Collectedness

2. When a good thought concerning the sensuous universe has arisen by the prompting of a conscious motive, a thought which is accompanied by pleasure, associated with knowledge.

Then Jhana is fivefold; Conception, Discursive Thought, Joy, Ease, Self-Collectedness

3. When a good thought concerning the sensuous universe has arisen accompanied by pleasure, disconnected with knowledge.

Then Jhana is fivefold; Conception, Discursive Thought, Joy, Ease, Self-Collectedness

4. When a good thought concerning the sensuous universe has arisen by the prompting of a conscious motive, a thought which is accompanied by happiness, disconnected with knowledge.

Then Jhana is fivefold; Conception, Discursive Thought, Joy, Ease, Self-Collectedness

5. When a good thought concerning the sensuous universe has arisen, accompanied by disinterestedness, associated with knowledge has arisen.

Then the Jhana is Fourfold; Conception, Discursive Thought, Equanimity, Composure

6. When a good thought concerning the sensuous universe has arisen, accompanied by disinterestedness, associated with knowledge, prompted by a conscious motive has arisen.

Then the Jhana is Fourfold; Conception, Discursive Thought, Equanimity, Self-Collectedness

7. When a good thought concerning the sensuous universe has arisen, accompanied by disinterestedness, disconnected with knowledge.

Then Jhana is fivefold; Conception, Discursive Thought, Joy, Ease, Self-Collectedness
I have this note sry i forgot where this comy is from (fwiw i guess it's the dispeller of delusion);
According to Cy., a good thought deserves to be distinguished [as a good state] on three grounds;
For it fabricates a good state; from the maturity of the faculties it involves; and from the remoteness of mental and moral infirmity which it implies.
Furthermore Abhidhamma lists the 'rapt meditations' which are "heavens of form" and would be designated as the Vsm jhanas;
1. When, that he may attain to the heavens of Form, he cultivates the way thereto, aloof from sensuous appetites, aloof from evil ideas, and so, by earth-wholeness, enters into and abides in the First Jhāna (the first rapt meditation), wherein conception works and thought discursive, which is born of solitude, and full of joy and ease.

Therein Jhana is Fivefold; Conception, Thought Discursive, Joy, Ease, Self-Collectedness.

1.5 When, that he may attain to the heavens of Form, he cultivates the way thereto, and so, by earth-wholeness, enters into and abides in a good state of Rapt Meditation, wherein is no working of conception, but only of thought discursive—which is born of concentration, and is full of joy and ease—then the contact, the feeling, the perception, the thinking, the thought, the discursive inquiry, the joy, the ease, the self-collectedness, etc… .

Jhana is Fourfold; Thought Discursive, Joy, Ease, Self-Collectedness

2. When, that he may attain to the heavens of Form, he cultivates the way thereto, suppressing the working of conception and of thought discursive, and so, by earth-wholeness, enters into and abides in the Second Jhāna (the second rapt meditation), which is self-evolved, born of concentration, full of joy and ease, in that, set free from the working of conception and of thought discursive, the mind grows calm and sure dwelling on high—then the contact, the feeling, the perception, the thinking, the thought, the joy, the ease, the self-collectedness.

Jhana is Threefold; Joy, Ease, Self-Collectedness

3. When, that he may attain to the heavens of Form, he cultivates the way thereto, and further, through the waning of all passion for joy, holds himself unbiassed, the while, mindful and self-possessed, he experiences in his sense-consciousness that ease whereof the Noble Ones declare: “He that is unbiassed and watchful dwelleth at ease”— and so, by earth-wholeness, enters into and abides in the Third Jhāna.

Then the Jhana is Twofold; Ease, Self-Collectedness

4. When, that he may attain to the heavens of Form, he cultivates the way thereto, and, by the putting away of ease and by the putting away of ill, by the away of the happiness and of the misery he was wont to feel, he thus, by earth-wholeness, enters into and abides in the Fourth Jhāna (the fourth rapt meditation) of that utter purity of mindfulness which comes of disinterestedness, where no ease is felt nor any ill

Then the Jhana is Twofold; Equanimity, Self-Collectedness

These would be parelled with the Form Kasina meditations of the sutta;
“Bhikkhus, there are these ten kasiṇa bases. What ten? One person perceives the earth kasiṇa above, below, across, undivided, measureless. One person perceives the water kasiṇa … the fire kasiṇa … the air kasiṇa … the blue kasiṇa … the yellow kasiṇa … the red kasiṇa … the white kasiṇa … the space kasiṇa … the consciousness kasiṇa above, below, across, undivided, measureless. These are the ten kasiṇa bases. Of these ten kasiṇa bases, this is the foremost, namely, when one perceives the consciousness kasiṇa above, below, across, undivided, measureless.
https://suttacentral.net/an10.29/en/bodhi
The difference is that kasina is loosely an object so it's semantic targets also include the limitless space and limitless consciousness.

If one takes only the Rupa Kasina then the Wholeness of white absorbtion, 'the base of white' is the highest in as far as the heavens of form go;
These are the eight bases of overcoming. Of these eight bases of overcoming, this is the foremost, namely, that one not percipient of forms internally sees forms externally, white ones, white in color with a white hue, with a white tint, and having overcome them, he is percipient thus: ‘I know, I see.’ There are beings who are percipient in such a way.
I like the term vipassanajhana because as i see it, it is quite precise in narrowing down the good states to those associated with jhana factors that are 'renunciation pleasure & are secluded from unwholesome states' but are not rapt meditations/kasina. It isn't sutta term but neither are vsm jhanas, if we are to use sutta method of expression, then we have to talk in terms of jhana, bases for overcoming, renunciation pleasure and kasina, the clsssification would require development of an abhidhamma like listings to delineate the difference between the terms.

It is very obvious also by experience that when one meditates there are pleasant states that obviously qualify as the jhana due to factors present but are not kasina based states just as there are obviously those that qualify and are kasina based states. Both are obviously jhana states in that they are secluded from unwholesome perceptions and are therefore qualified to be called jhana as these are initially accompanied by 'rapture born of seclusion'.

If you have a better way of explaining the sutta method, then by all means please enlighten me.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:50 pm, edited 6 times in total.
'Bhikkhus, possessing three qualities, a bhikkhu is practicing the unmistaken way and has laid the groundwork for the destruction of the taints. What three? Here, a bhikkhu guards the doors of the sense faculties, observes moderation in eating, and is intent on wakefulness. He should develop perception of unattractiveness so as to abandon lust... good will so as to abandon ill will... mindfulness of in-&-out breathing so as to cut off distractive thinking... the perception of inconstancy so as to uproot the conceit, 'I am.
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Re: Theravada if it includes Buddhaghosa is schismatic

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

mikenz66 wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:23 pm
greenjuice wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:12 amobviously some people are attached to other other interpretation of the jhanas (which they themselves never entered) so much that they have a need to disparage people who disagree. ...
What about those who have experiences similar to the lighter interpretations, but are not convinced that it is jhana, and just keep working on the the path? What exactly are they missing out on?

:heart:
Mike
“Then again, the individual who, being unblemished, doesn’t discern as it has come to be that ‘I have no inner blemish’ is called the inferior man of the two individuals who are unblemished. The individual who, being unblemished, discerns as it has come to be that ‘I have no inner blemish’ is called the superior man of the two individuals who are unblemished.”
Without resistance in all four directions,
content with whatever you get,
enduring troubles with no dismay,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
Image
But if they hit you with a stick...?"
"...I will think, 'These people are very civilized, in that they don't hit me with a knife.'..."
"But if they hit you with a knife...?"
"...I will think, 'These people are very civilized, in that they don't take my life with a sharp knife.'..."
SN35.88
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Re: Theravada if it includes Buddhaghosa is schismatic

Post by DooDoot »

samseva wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:38 pm One of the Buddha's most skilled disciples had difficulty attaining jhāna... but many can attain jhāna at a short retreat with Bhante Vimalaramsi and Leigh Brasington?
:meditate: :ugeek:
rhinoceroshorn wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:24 pm
“Then again, the individual who, being unblemished, doesn’t discern as it has come to be that ‘I have no inner blemish’ is called the inferior man of the two individuals who are unblemished. The individual who, being unblemished, discerns as it has come to be that ‘I have no inner blemish’ is called the superior man of the two individuals who are unblemished.”
:roll:
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Re: Theravada if it includes Buddhaghosa is schismatic

Post by rightviewftw »

samseva wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:18 pm In fact, in both the Visuddhimagga and the Abhidhamma (as well as the Suttas), one must first emerge from jhāna to practice insight.
People say these things but id make a good case for there being no jhana without insight;
Natthi jhanam apannassa
panna natthi ajhayato
yamhi jhananca panna ca
sa ve nibbanasantike."
Would appreciate splitting this thread into 'the definition of jhana' thread.
'Bhikkhus, possessing three qualities, a bhikkhu is practicing the unmistaken way and has laid the groundwork for the destruction of the taints. What three? Here, a bhikkhu guards the doors of the sense faculties, observes moderation in eating, and is intent on wakefulness. He should develop perception of unattractiveness so as to abandon lust... good will so as to abandon ill will... mindfulness of in-&-out breathing so as to cut off distractive thinking... the perception of inconstancy so as to uproot the conceit, 'I am.
BrokenBones
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Re: Theravada if it includes Buddhaghosa is schismatic

Post by BrokenBones »

samseva wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:04 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:11 am There is no need for anyone to be upset :meditate:
I'll continue to delude myself with my imperfect meditation and apparently wanting sila and others can anaesthetise themselves with their perfect meditation and sila.
If you take the same way of thinking as "jhāna-light"... from meditating an hour daily, you'll be able to reach the 4th jhāna, and any of the arūpa-jhāna... in a few days?

...and Enlightenment in a month?*

*("Enlightenment-light," not "Visuddhimagga-style Enlightenment"!)

Woooow... :shock: :shock: :shock:

Again... there's no such thing as "jhāna-light." In the same way that there isn't a "light" version of Enlightenment, there isn't a "light" version of jhāna. Both necessitate a substancial amount of effort and skill...
An hour daily? Jhana 'lite'? Where do you get this from? Certainly not from me. There is jhana and there is RIGHT effort... there is also 'mindless' jhana but this was rejected by the Buddha as a dead end.

Metta
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