Theravada if it includes Buddhaghosa is schismatic

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samseva
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Re: Theravada if it includes Buddhaghosa is schismatic

Post by samseva »

BrokenBones wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:01 pm[...] which is what you appear to be suggesting.
What I'm pointing to is that Leigh Brasington says that he's "solidly in the 8th jhāna," all the while there appearing "words," "sentences" and even finding himself "in the middle of some paragraph":
Leigh Brasington wrote: I couldn't tell you the number of times, I'm there, I'm solidly in the eighth jhāna and then the next thing I know I'm in the middle of some paragraph of distraction.
And what I'm saying is that Leigh Brasington—as with his students—is 1) speaking complete non-sense (and making up false definitions of Pāḷi words, such as saññā/perception meaning "identifying things"), and 2) doesn't know what he's talking about.

Leigh is not in the "8th jhāna," like he says, because it's impossible for there to be vitakka or vicāra past the first jhāna (as in the stock passage of jhāna, throughout the Sutta Piṭaka).

Although I don't have much to prove this—contrary to his thinking in "8th jhāna" claim, which contradicts the Suttas—I would say he's not even in the first jhāna—but much more likely just in a normal state of mind, and experiencing restless thinking (along with substantial delusion/conceit, with all that thinking and the fabricated belief that he has "attained the '8th jhāna'").

If Leigh Brasington can incorrectly confuse the first jhāna—or more likely, just normal states of mind—for insanely high attainments, such as the "8th jhāna" (fourth arūpa-jhāna)... then that means he also can easily confuse neighbourhood-concentration/upacāra-samādhi—or even normal states of mind—as being the first jhāna.
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samseva
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Re: Theravada if it includes Buddhaghosa is schismatic

Post by samseva »

Either way, I'll instead take the opinion of skilled and learned monks such as Ven. Anālayo, Buddhaghosa, as well as many modern Sri Lankan/Burmese monks—who have intensely studied the Pāḷi language, but most importantly, who have meditated thousands or tens of thousands of hours...

...over a lay teacher—and an English-speaking/polemic monk—who publicly and falsely claims attainments (thinking in the fourth arūpa-jhāna?), and who invents new definitions of Pāḷi words (like perception/saññā as meaning "identifying things")—all of this according to a false and personal re-interpretation of jhāna/the Suttas.

For these two teachers, this all invariably requires the discrediting of absolutely everything that contradicts that false re-interpretation (which is my objection)—of which it turns out is every single Pāḷi scholar and meditator, all the way back to 1500+ years in the past...

Claims that are difficult to substantiate, for two teachers who don't know Pāḷi (or barely), and who have meditated only a tiny fraction, compared to the amount of time much more realized and advanced monks from the past 1500 years have...
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frank k
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Re: Theravada if it includes Buddhaghosa is schismatic

Post by frank k »

robertk wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:12 am
BrokenBones wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:08 am And what on earth was Sariputta doing by being mindful throughout all those ambulance jhanas?

Metta
The rare types of arahat with all abhiññā have such skill in jhana that they can leave and enter very quickly - and so Sariputta was able to have insight into the factors of each jhana immediately after leaving.

I post detailed response to Robert here, with link to sutta text evidence against his interpretation:
https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... ious.html
excerpt:
This misunderstanding comes from not studying MN 111 (among many other related suttas) carefully.

Notice the perception attainments (first 4 jhanas and first 3 formless attainments), Sariputta is using the standard jhana and arupa formulas. It only shows him "entering and remaining" (upasampajja viharati) without "emerging"....
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frank k
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Re: Theravada if it includes Buddhaghosa is schismatic

Post by frank k »

samseva wrote: Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:53 am Either way, I'll instead take the opinion of skilled and learned monks such as Ven. Anālayo, ...
You do so at your peril.
Especially when even novice high school and university students taking a course in logic can spot his fallacious reasoning that he uses to justify his erroneous understanding of jhana, vitakka, etc.

A simple explanation (one a child could understand) of the type of fallacy he uses to erroneously explain noble silence of second jhana:
https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... -and.html
And the full analysis where he commits fraudulent interpretation of noble silence in his book:
http://lucid24.org/sted/8aam/8samadhi/v ... ndex.html
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www.audtip.org/audtip: 🎙️🔊Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages
auto
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Re: Theravada if it includes Buddhaghosa is schismatic

Post by auto »

samseva wrote: Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:09 am
auto wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:11 pm evidence? just put your tongue against the roof top, don't move the tongue, you won't be able to read. It will stop your ordinary thinking, [...]
I was able to read your post just fine (even with the tongue at the palete of the mouth).
If it would be that black and white then everyone would know about it, but not, even teachers in school teach reading only using mind and not spell words out. Now if you are punctuate then you would think: "does the tongue has to be completely still?" then if you do hold tongue still, you can't read.
Its here well hmm: "i am retarded, everyone else can read with using their mind only"
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rightviewftw
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Re: Theravada if it includes Buddhaghosa is schismatic

Post by rightviewftw »

Buddhagosa merely translated the commentaries. The OP question is akin to asking; 'If the canon is expanded to include non-canonical texts, does the original lore become corrupted?'

The commentaries are a huge aggregate of ideas.

Frankly it seems lazy to me in that Instead of analyzing everything of commentary according to the four great references;
Take another mendicant who says: ‘In such-and-such monastery there is a single senior mendicant who is very learned and knowledgeable in the scriptures, who has memorized the teachings, the texts on monastic discipline, and the outlines. I’ve heard and learned this in the presence of that senior mendicant: this is the teaching, this is the training, this is the Teacher’s instruction.’ You should neither approve nor dismiss that mendicant’s statement. Instead, you should carefully memorize those words and phrases, then check if they’re included in the discourses and found in the texts on monastic discipline. If they are included in the discourses and found in the monastic law, you should draw the conclusion: ‘Clearly this is the word of the Blessed One, the perfected one, the fully awakened Buddha. It has been correctly memorized by that senior mendicant.’ You should remember it. This is the fourth great reference.
one is looking to either dismiss or accept the entire aggregate based on what exactly if not one's own due analysis? Is that fit for a vibhajjavadin to do?
'Bhikkhus, possessing three qualities, a bhikkhu is practicing the unmistaken way and has laid the groundwork for the destruction of the taints. What three? Here, a bhikkhu guards the doors of the sense faculties, observes moderation in eating, and is intent on wakefulness. He should develop perception of unattractiveness so as to abandon lust... good will so as to abandon ill will... mindfulness of in-&-out breathing so as to cut off distractive thinking... the perception of inconstancy so as to uproot the conceit, 'I am.
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Re: Theravada if it includes Buddhaghosa is schismatic

Post by BrokenBones »

Ok... 'discernment'... read perception... apperception. And if you've experienced any learned skill as a perfectly linear process with no falling away and not having to skilfully deal with setbacks... good on you. The Buddha's jhana's aren't sealed rooms which you enter for a period of time in mindless absorption before returning to earth.


Metta
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samseva
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Re: Theravada if it includes Buddhaghosa is schismatic

Post by samseva »

BrokenBones wrote: Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:53 pm Ok... 'discernment'... read perception... apperception. And if you've experienced any learned skill as a perfectly linear process with no falling away and not having to skilfully deal with setbacks... good on you. The Buddha's jhana's aren't sealed rooms which you enter for a period of time in mindless absorption before returning to earth.
Again, your personal opinion/re-interpretation (and even definitions).

Jhāna is a linear process... of which each jhāna is defined by the absence of the hindrances (nīvaraṇa), and the presence of certain criteria/mental factors—i.e., thought-conception and discursive thinking/vitakka-vicāra (1st only), rapture/pīti (1st and 2nd), pleasure/sukha (1st, 2nd and 3rd), and concentration/samādhi (all four).

This is specifically defined and linear (one goes from one jhāna to the next, or lower, or emerges from jhāna)—there is no non-linear "wobbling"... or thought-conception and discursive thinking (vitakka-vicāra) that can suddenly pop up in the fourth jhāna—which Leigh Brasington claims, even though it clearly contradicts the Suttas.

As outlined in the stock passage about jhāna—repeated throughout the Sutta Piṭaka:
Here, secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, a bhikkhu enters and dwells in the first jhāna which consists of rapture and pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by thought and examination. With the subsiding of thought and examination, he enters and dwells in the second jhāna, which has internal placidity and unification of mind and consists of rapture and pleasure born of concentration, without thought and examination. With the fading away as well of rapture, he dwells equanimous and, mindful and clearly comprehending, he experiences pleasure with the body; he enters and dwells in the third jhāna of which the noble ones declare: ‘He is equanimous, mindful, one who dwells happily.’ With the abandoning of pleasure and pain, and with the previous passing away of joy and dejection, he enters and dwells in the fourth jhāna, neither painful nor pleasant, which has purification of mindfulness by equanimity.
Jhāna isn't a "wobbly" and non-concentrated/distracted state of mind. What is a "wobbly" and unconcentrated, rather, is a state of mind pestered by the hindrances (nīvaraṇa)—which is precisely the exact opposite of jhāna.

And, this hindered state of mind—along with neighbourhood-concentration (upacāra-samādhi)—is what fabricated "jhāna-light" is.
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samseva
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Re: Theravada if it includes Buddhaghosa is schismatic

Post by samseva »

(CONTEMPLATION OF MIND) [...]
He understands contracted mind as contracted mind, and distracted mind as distracted mind. [...]
He understands concentrated mind as concentrated mind, and unconcentrated mind as unconcentrated mind.
(1. The Five Hindrances) [...]
There being restlessness and remorse in him, a bhikkhu understands: ‘There is restlessness and remorse in me’; or there being no restlessness and remorse in him, he understands: ‘There is no restlessness and remorse in me’; and he understands [...]
—MN 10, Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta (transl., Bhikkhu Bodhi)
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samseva
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Re: Theravada if it includes Buddhaghosa is schismatic

Post by samseva »

"Jhāna-light" believers try to deceive themselves, so that they can pat themselves on the back and say "I've reached jhāna!"

Whereas, if they were a bit more patient and would put more effort into their meditation (as well as their precepts and sīla) they would likely actually reach jhāna...
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Re: Theravada if it includes Buddhaghosa is schismatic

Post by BrokenBones »

samseva wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:56 am "Jhāna-light" believers try to deceive themselves, so that they can pat themselves on the back and say "I've reached jhāna!"

Whereas, if they were a bit more patient and would put more effort into their meditation (as well as their precepts and sīla) they would likely actually reach jhāna...
There is no need for anyone to be upset :meditate:
I'll continue to delude myself with my imperfect meditation and apparently wanting sila and others can anaesthetise themselves with their perfect meditation and sila.
As for Leigh Brassington... I never mentioned him or look to him for guidance... you seem to be fixated on him.

The jhana's are indeed linear but an individual's progress rarely is.

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Re: Theravada if it includes Buddhaghosa is schismatic

Post by mikenz66 »

I would add to samseva's post that I don't know what the downside is to the interpretation that jhāna is a deep, and difficult to attain, absorption. Personally, I work on developing the eight-fold path, including doing what I can to develop sati and samādhi. Perhaps, according to some of the particularly light interpretations, I could call what I develop on retreats jhāna. But I'm not sure what practical difference that would make. I know that I still have a lot of greed, aversion, and delusion to work on, so I continue to work on it...

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Re: Theravada if it includes Buddhaghosa is schismatic

Post by Coëmgenu »

mikenz66 wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:26 am I would add to samseva's post that I don't know what the downside is to the interpretation that jhāna is a deep, and difficult to attain, absorption. Personally, I work on developing the eight-fold path, including doing what I can to develop sati and samādhi. Perhaps, according to some of the particularly light interpretations, I could call what I develop on retreats jhāna. But I'm not sure what practical difference that would make. I know that I still have a lot of greed, aversion, and delusion to work on, so I continue to work on it...

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Mike
Well, lite-jhana isn't for you IMO. Jhana-lite isn't for someone who is capable of evaluating themselves and realizing they have anything at all "to work on." Jhana-lite is for those who see only perfection in their decaying bodies and minds, indeed can only see that, regardless of if that perfection is there.
If you see a river, pray that beings gain entrance into the stream and into the ocean of wisdom. If you see a reservoir, pray that beings swiftly taste the one taste of the Dharma. If you see a pond, pray that beings become great in locution and skillful in preaching. If you see a well, pray that beings draw deep from the well of reason to disclose all dharmas. If you see a spring, pray that beings have inexhaustible roots of virtue. If you see a bridge, pray that beings carry all across to safety, as via a bridge. If you see a waterfall, pray that all beings cleanse the stains of delusion.
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rightviewftw
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Re: Theravada if it includes Buddhaghosa is schismatic

Post by rightviewftw »

I think the standard theravada interpretation based on the sutta and which is expounded in the abhidhamma is that both 'light jhana [vipassanajhana]' and the 'hard [vsm] jhana' are a thing, the semantic range of abhidhamma 'jhana [states that are good]' is even broader than 'light jhana/vipassanajhana+lights & stuff' and rightly so because sutta support this (think; 'if he was to develop metta even for as long as a fingersnap he is called one who is not without jhana...'). I think all this is the most simple interpretation of the sutta really. It is as i see it unfortunate that people still get hung up on this controversy.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
'Bhikkhus, possessing three qualities, a bhikkhu is practicing the unmistaken way and has laid the groundwork for the destruction of the taints. What three? Here, a bhikkhu guards the doors of the sense faculties, observes moderation in eating, and is intent on wakefulness. He should develop perception of unattractiveness so as to abandon lust... good will so as to abandon ill will... mindfulness of in-&-out breathing so as to cut off distractive thinking... the perception of inconstancy so as to uproot the conceit, 'I am.
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greenjuice
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Re: Theravada if it includes Buddhaghosa is schismatic

Post by greenjuice »

Where did Leigh write that? I googled it and there is literally no place on the internet with that senstance except this page of the forum.
Even if he did write this, it doesnt say there that there is thinking in the jhanas, it says "next thing", so, it obviously refers to exiting the jhanas.

On the other hand, I know Leigh talks about how there are no distracting thoughts in the jhanas.

And yes, this negative obsession with Leigh is an interesting phenomenon. One would think that a person who formulated the clearest explicit instructions on how to consistently enter jhanas wouldn't receive such treatment, but obviously some people are attached to other other interpretation of the jhanas (which they themselves never entered) so much that they have a need to disparage people who disagree. Which btw Leigh doesnt do, and he has talked /written objectively about different interpretations of jhana. He has even written about once managing to do something which seemed like entering a "visuddhimagga jhana", while on a retreat with a teacher who accepts that interpretation of the jhanas (Pa Auk).
Last edited by greenjuice on Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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