Question about Evidence of Nibanna

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confusedlayman
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Re: Question about Evidence of Nibanna

Post by confusedlayman »

nibbana is real.. whoever thinks otherway due to ignorance and mara influence will miss the holy path and might go down to nether world
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Re: Question about Evidence of Nibanna

Post by binocular »

konchy wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 3:27 pmMy question is: Where is the direct evidence for Nibanna?
To quote the priest from "Million Dollar Baby": Most people figure out by kindergarten that it's about faith.
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Re: Question about Evidence of Nibanna

Post by santa100 »

konchy wrote:My question is: Where is the direct evidence for Nibanna?
There's a funny story about a group of blind elephants. They never knew what human beings are like and decided to "directly" experience us. After some times, they all reached the same conclusion: "All human beings are flat"! So, asking for "direct evidence" for Nibbana is like a visually impaired person asking for direct evidence of the existence of colors, or a deep-sea fish asking for the proof of the sun's existence. Until the eye problem's been fixed and the deep-sea fish's evolved to be able to live on land, the truth can only be taken by provisional faith.
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Re: Question about Evidence of Nibanna

Post by cappuccino »

The difference between air conditioning & heat

Is the difference between Nirvana & Samsara
2600htz
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Re: Question about Evidence of Nibanna

Post by 2600htz »

konchy wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 3:27 pm Hi all,

Need some help with this issue which has been bugging me for months if not years. So far everyone I've asked either don't know or have not given a satisfactory answer. All the suttas I've read on accesstoinsight website don't have an answer either.

My question is: Where is the direct evidence for Nibanna?

If there is truly a permanent Nibanna, then given the appearance of Buddhas every now and then throughout these repeating world cycles, the number of beings should have reached zero. A simple analogy would be there is a pond filled with a thousand fishes. THe fishes represent every being there is in the universe. Every now and then a fish is removed. Sooner or later, the pond should have no more fishes.

The most common answer which I've received is that it's not an important question. Personally, I think this is flawed. Everything the Buddha has taught leads towards Nibanna. Nibanna is the most important thing in Buddhism but somehow, the evidence of Nibanna is ignored? This is the kind of response you would expect from a devout Christian when you tell them that there is no evidence of God.

Another common answer I've received is the number of beings is infinite. Personally I think this is also flawed. Just because it's currently beyond human capability to count them doesn't mean it's infinite. Even the number of atoms in the universe is finite, it's just a matter of counting.

Which leaves us with these possibilities:-
A) Nibanna does not work.
B) Nibanna works but the effects of Unbinding are not permanent. Meaning that the being that experiences Nibanna eventually comes back into the samsaric cycle.
C) the number of beings in the universe are replenished.


Thanks very much.
Hi Konchy:

Ok, the first thing i would tell you is that since you are taking an approach of the subject in terms of science and mathematics,i think your questions and statements should be on the same terms.

Being that the case, the problem of "infinity" is complex and has always puzzled mathematicians, but you are dismissing it very lightly saying it does not exist.

Secondly, if infinity does not exist, how did you came to the realization that the number of beings should have reached zero ? following you analogy, it could be the case that half the pond is currently filled, or 1/3, etc.

Finally, direct evidence of nibbana according to buddhism comes from personal realization. A teenager could say: "But if there is no scientific evidence then it can be easily dismissed". But that is not the case, since there are no tests or scientific proofs for many phenomena that we experience, yet they are accepted by most people as "real".

Regards.
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Re: Question about Evidence of Nibanna

Post by DNS »

2600htz wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2020 11:06 pm Hi Konchy:

Secondly, if infinity does not exist, how did you came to the realization that the number of beings should have reached zero ? following you analogy, it could be the case that half the pond is currently filled, or 1/3, etc.
I'm not agreeing with the OP, but can explain the thinking behind his view:

The number of fish in the pond represents all the "souls" or mindstreams that exist.
Each time a new mindstream attains nibbana, the number of fish is reduced and eventually there are no more fish in the pond.

This argument has some underlying assumptions or premises:
The number of beings is not infinite.
Procreation of a being involves the transfer, rebirth of a mindstream from a previous "being."
"New" mindstreams do not occur.
The universe is finite.

Any or all of those premises could be wrong.
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Re: Question about Evidence of Nibanna

Post by confusedlayman »

DNS wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2020 11:45 pm
2600htz wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2020 11:06 pm Hi Konchy:

Secondly, if infinity does not exist, how did you came to the realization that the number of beings should have reached zero ? following you analogy, it could be the case that half the pond is currently filled, or 1/3, etc.
I'm not agreeing with the OP, but can explain the thinking behind his view:

The number of fish in the pond represents all the "souls" or mindstreams that exist.
Each time a new mindstream attains nibbana, the number of fish is reduced and eventually there are no more fish in the pond.

This argument has some underlying assumptions or premises:
The number of beings is not infinite.
Procreation of a being involves the transfer, rebirth of a mindstream from a previous "being."
"New" mindstreams do not occur.
The universe is finite.

Any or all of those premises could be wrong.
the best thing is to not perceive it this or that as perception itself depend on ignorance of taking signs as real. how a inherant soul or being dont exist, then mind stream also inherantly dont exist... in ever flowing phenomena how can someone pinpoint anything as something? in million waves in ocean, a small wave is not induvidual it has no begging and no end as it is only ignorance that cognize high raising wave relative to non wave stagnent water and labels it and search for it once the wave came down in to normal beach
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Re: Question about Evidence of Nibanna

Post by DooDoot »

confusedlayman wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:14 am perception itself depend on ignorance
100% wrong
They understand: ‘This field of perception is empty of the perception of the asava of sensuality, becoming and ignorance.

That’s how emptiness is born in them — genuine, undistorted and pure.

Whatever ascetics and brahmins enter and remain in the pure, ultimate, supreme emptiness—whether in the past, future, or present—all of them enter and remain in this same pure, ultimate, supreme emptiness.

MN 121
:alien:
confusedlayman wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:14 am it is only ignorance that cognize high raising wave relative to non wave stagnent water and labels it and
No. It is actually wisdom or clarity of mind that can cognise the clear characteristics of things and their impermanence.

The Buddha taught craving, attachment & self-becoming is the arising of suffering (rather than labeling per se). Labeling a wave as a 'wave' does not bring suffering, as the Buddha taught, as follows:
The Realized One, the perfected one, the fully awakened Buddha directly knows water as water. But he doesn’t identify with water, he doesn’t identify regarding water, he doesn’t identify as water, he doesn’t identify that ‘water is mine’, he doesn’t take pleasure in water.

MN 1
Wrong view, wrong doctrine, wrong forum.
Last edited by DooDoot on Tue Aug 04, 2020 1:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Question about Evidence of Nibanna

Post by confusedlayman »

DooDoot wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:51 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:14 am perception itself depend on ignorance
100% wrong
They understand: ‘This field of perception is empty of the perception of the asava of sensuality, becoming and ignorance.

That’s how emptiness is born in them — genuine, undistorted and pure.

Whatever ascetics and brahmins enter and remain in the pure, ultimate, supreme emptiness—whether in the past, future, or present—all of them enter and remain in this same pure, ultimate, supreme emptiness.

MN 121
:alien:
confusedlayman wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:14 am it is only ignorance that cognize high raising wave relative to non wave stagnent water and labels it and
No. It is actually wisdom or clarity of mind that can cognise the clear characteristics of things and their impermanence.

The Buddha taught craving, attachment & self-becoming is the arising of suffering (rather than labeling per se). Labeling a wave as a 'wave' does not bring suffering, as the Buddha taught, as follows:
The Realized One, the perfected one, the fully awakened Buddha directly knows water as water. But he doesn’t identify with water, he doesn’t identify regarding water, he doesn’t identify as water, he doesn’t identify that ‘water is mine’, he doesn’t take pleasure in water.

MN 1
DooDoot wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:51 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:14 am perception itself depend on ignorance
100% wrong


Sorry can u prove why its wrong?
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Re: Question about Evidence of Nibanna

Post by DooDoot »

confusedlayman wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 1:02 pm Sorry can u prove why its wrong?
It was proved with sutta quotes it was wrong. Read the suttas quotes.

Irritation is responsible for conceit :roll:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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2600htz
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Re: Question about Evidence of Nibanna

Post by 2600htz »

DNS wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2020 11:45 pm
2600htz wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2020 11:06 pm Hi Konchy:

Secondly, if infinity does not exist, how did you came to the realization that the number of beings should have reached zero ? following you analogy, it could be the case that half the pond is currently filled, or 1/3, etc.
I'm not agreeing with the OP, but can explain the thinking behind his view:

The number of fish in the pond represents all the "souls" or mindstreams that exist.
Each time a new mindstream attains nibbana, the number of fish is reduced and eventually there are no more fish in the pond.

This argument has some underlying assumptions or premises:
The number of beings is not infinite.
Procreation of a being involves the transfer, rebirth of a mindstream from a previous "being."
"New" mindstreams do not occur.
The universe is finite.

Any or all of those premises could be wrong.
Hi DNS:

I understand that view (that EVENTUALLY the universe should reach zero beings), but the point i was trying to make was that the OP told "the number of being SHOULD HAVE ALREADY reached zero, and because that is not the case this theory made no sense to him". To me that is an assumption without base within the theory itself.

Regards.
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Re: Question about Evidence of Nibanna

Post by NuanceOfSuchness »

konchy wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 3:27 pm Hi all,

My question is: Where is the direct evidence for Nibanna?



Thanks very much.
It is because it isn't anything. It's a game of bait and switch. However, in many sanghas around the world nibbana has to be presented in a brochure with all the bells, trinkets and baubles and sold to the already silly people. It is the only thing an ignorant mind will respond to.
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Re: Question about Evidence of Nibanna

Post by cappuccino »

NuanceOfSuchness wrote: It is because it isn't anything. It's a game of bait and switch.
you seem to think annihilation is the goal
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Re: Question about Evidence of Nibanna

Post by NuanceOfSuchness »

cappuccino wrote: Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:04 pm
you seem to think annihilation is the goal
I can see how you came up with that assumption.

When I say, "it isn't anything" this means the continuity of rupa is absent. The continuity of rupa emerges through the six-sense consciousnesses. These too are absent.

Sometimes a carrot on a stick is what is needed.
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Re: Question about Evidence of Nibanna

Post by cappuccino »

NuanceOfSuchness wrote: Sometimes a carrot on a stick is what is needed.
here a worthy goal is needed, not a trick


Buddha isn't deceptive
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