On the Existence of Nibbana

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Ceisiwr
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On the Existence of Nibbana

Post by Ceisiwr »

Greetings everyone,

In classical Theravada the Nibbana element is said to be an ultimate reality. It is a real and existing element which bears its own nature (sabhava). In the Udana we find this well known sutta:
There is that dimension, monks, where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor staying; neither passing away nor arising: unestablished,[1] unevolving, without support [mental object].[2] This, just this, is the end of stress.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

In the commentary to the Udana, the Udana-atthakatha, Ven. Dhammapāla argues that this sutta demonstrates that the Nibbana element exists. As it bears its own nature it is not a mere concept and so exists as an ultimate reality. Note, this does not mean that the dhamma has any "essence" underlying it like what we find in the Sarvastivadin Abhidharma and its explanation of dhammas (this underlying essence was needed to explain how dhammas exist in the 3 periods of time).

Those from Mahayana and some from within Theravada would argue that it is a mistake to say that Nibbana exists, that is to say to grant Nibbana some measure of ontological status. My question is general. Do you think nibbana is a real and existing dhamma, or is it a concept? Is it a mistake to claim that "nibbana exists" or not? Can we say dhammas exist or not in your view?

I've added a pic of Ven. Dhammapāla's commentary below (the page order is bottom, middle then top).
Attachments
dha 3.jpg
dha 2.jpg
dha 1.jpg
"Analysis and synthesis are praised by the wise,
liberation in the Sāsana comes from analysis and synthesis;
the purpose of the method of analysis and synthesis is the ultimate"


Nāmarūpapariccheda
PeterC86
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Re: On the Existence of Nibbana

Post by PeterC86 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 2:03 pm Greetings everyone,

In classical Theravada the Nibbana element is said to be an ultimate reality. It is a real and existing element which bears its own nature (sabhava). In the Udana we find this well known sutta:
There is that dimension, monks, where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor staying; neither passing away nor arising: unestablished,[1] unevolving, without support [mental object].[2] This, just this, is the end of stress.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

In the commentary to the Udana, the Udana-atthakatha, Ven. Dhammapāla argues that this sutta demonstrates that the Nibbana element exists. As it bears its own nature it is not a mere concept and so exists as an ultimate reality. Note, this does not mean that the dhamma has any "essence" underlying it like what we find in the Sarvastivadin Abhidharma and its explanation of dhammas (this underlying essence was needed to explain how dhammas exist in the 3 periods of time).

Those from Mahayana and some from within Theravada would argue that it is a mistake to say that Nibbana exists, that is to say to grant Nibbana some measure of ontological status. My question is general. Do you think nibbana is a real and existing dhamma, or is it a concept? Is it a mistake to claim that "nibbana exists" or not? Can we say dhammas exist or not in your view?

I've added a pic of Ven. Dhammapāla's commentary below (the page order is bottom, middle then top).
Stop searching and go find out. ;)
I am only here to guide others who are searching for Nibbana.
SteRo
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Re: On the Existence of Nibbana

Post by SteRo »

It seems to be in line with Theravada outlook to say that nibbana exists. The meaning of 'existence' in Theravada isn't necessarily the metaphysical meaning of hard-core Mahayana Madhyamaka philosophy because it might have a connotation of 'merely experiential' realism. Even saying "ultimate reality" might have the connotation of 'as far as experience can reach'.
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ
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salayatananirodha
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Re: On the Existence of Nibbana

Post by salayatananirodha »

fake news
16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


links:
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/index.htm
http://thaiforestwisdom.org/canonical-texts/
http://seeingthroughthenet.net/wp-conte ... _Heart.pdf
https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html
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Ceisiwr
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Re: On the Existence of Nibbana

Post by Ceisiwr »

SteRo wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 2:41 pm It seems to be in line with Theravada outlook to say that nibbana exists. The meaning of 'existence' in Theravada isn't necessarily the metaphysical meaning of hard-core Mahayana Madhyamaka philosophy because it might have a connotation of 'merely experiential' realism. Even saying "ultimate reality" might have the connotation of 'as far as experience can reach'.
Yes you have the point in that Madhyamaka was attacking the Sarvastivadin position that there is some underlying continuous essence to the dhammas, thus allowing them to exist in the 3 times. That is missing from the Theravadin Abhidhamma. Nagarjuna's criticisms thus do not strictly apply to Theravada.
"Analysis and synthesis are praised by the wise,
liberation in the Sāsana comes from analysis and synthesis;
the purpose of the method of analysis and synthesis is the ultimate"


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Ceisiwr
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Re: On the Existence of Nibbana

Post by Ceisiwr »

salayatananirodha wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 2:45 pm fake news
Care to expand?
"Analysis and synthesis are praised by the wise,
liberation in the Sāsana comes from analysis and synthesis;
the purpose of the method of analysis and synthesis is the ultimate"


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chownah
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Re: On the Existence of Nibbana

Post by chownah »

The buddha taught that there are two extremes those being existence and non-existence and that the buddha takes the middle path which is dependent origination.
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Re: On the Existence of Nibbana

Post by cappuccino »

Ceisiwr wrote: Is it a mistake to claim that "nibbana exists" or not?
Nirvana is the final dimension
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Re: On the Existence of Nibbana

Post by SteRo »

chownah wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 3:30 pm The buddha taught that there are two extremes those being existence and non-existence and that the buddha takes the middle path which is dependent origination.
chownah
But there is another sutta in which he affirms existence.
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ
auto
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Re: On the Existence of Nibbana

Post by auto »

a dimension which is unmeasurable. It deflect the meaning of dimension but regardless is a dimension.

I think the sabhava is regards to the problem of categorization, it can't be categorized so in order to imply that it is still a real thing it is said to be having sabhava.
The eyes, and their objects etc are real.
auto
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Re: On the Existence of Nibbana

Post by auto »

you should follow the Matrix logic. Mind makes things real.
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cappuccino
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Re: On the Existence of Nibbana

Post by cappuccino »

auto wrote: you should follow the Matrix logic.
Matrix is postmodern philosophy
auto
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Re: On the Existence of Nibbana

Post by auto »

cappuccino wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 6:01 pm
auto wrote: you should follow the Matrix logic.
Matrix is postmodern philosophy
Mind making things real in a machine generated world where what mind makes real also happen with the non-digital person. So if you get a nose bleed in a digital world, then it also happen to the real body.

That means the real world is also as like digital and you can become the One.

edit: updated Cap. quote
Last edited by auto on Mon Jul 27, 2020 6:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Dan74
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Re: On the Existence of Nibbana

Post by Dan74 »

Ending the ignorance and delusion and their off-shoots: greed and hatred, is possible. That's what Nibbana is. Whether or not one calls it "a thing" or something that exist is just word games, seems to me. When one clenches the fist and then opens the hand up, where is the fist gone? Does an open hand state exist? Or should we call it a non-fist? Blah blah blah...
_/|\_
auto
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Re: On the Existence of Nibbana

Post by auto »

Dan74 wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 6:21 pm When one clenches the fist and then opens the hand up, where is the fist gone? Does an open hand state exist? Or should we call it a non-fist? Blah blah blah...
i like it, i have no idea where the fist goes. So the ordinary reality is the real one.

thumb up.
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