Right View and anicca

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
SteRo
Posts: 2380
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:27 am

Re: Right View and anicca

Post by SteRo »

Sam Vara wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 4:33 pm
SteRo wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 3:00 pm

Well, my understanding is that Nicolas and bodom have affirmed the expression "right view" in the context of insight into anicca while I have rejected it. So there is no redundancy. Nicolas and bodom seem to stick to sutta as being beyond failure of monks having authored them.
They haven't merely affirmed it, they have shown that the Buddha used it in that context, in the same way that he used it in the contexts of the 4NT and the factors listed in MN 9.

Issues of monkish monkey business and correct transcription of the Blessed One's words are best considered outwith this rather specific topic as raised in the OP.
Let's agree that we do not agree.
To the spheres of experience ("users") it may concern: When applying words no truth or reality is claimed. Language only knows the extremes of (+)-affirming experience ("is", "has", "does", etc.) and (-)-negating experience ("isn't", "hasn't", "doesn't", etc.) but it does not know the 'zero'-(0)-experience of non-apprehension. Therefore every linguistic expression might erroneously appear as claim though it is only a preliminary suggestion.

User avatar
confusedlayman
Posts: 2184
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am
Location: Human Realm

Re: Right View and anicca

Post by confusedlayman »

. Upon hearing the Buddha, she had quickly attained the second step of purification, becoming a once-returner. She did not marry, but not because she had renounced marriage. In fact, when she saw the happiness of her two sisters, she became sad and lonely. Her spiritual strength did not suffice to overcome her depression. To the deep sorrow of her family, she wasted away, eating nothing, starving to death. She was reborn in the Tusita heaven

even anthapindaka (biggest donar of buddha) 3rd daughert even having right view and once returner stage, she did by depression because she still had self view and discrimination of her vs others. can someone explain the above story? if she had no self view, why would she because sad and lonely when there is no one to feel sad just arising of sad feeling depending on contact of her sence or intellect when she cognize external object as whole which is opposite of emptiness?
Master said dont neglect concentration ... practice jhana "O dhamma wheel users! "

User avatar
Dhammanando
Posts: 5563
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Location: Mae Wang Huai Rin, Li District, Lamphun

Re: Right View and anicca

Post by Dhammanando »

Sam Vara wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 10:40 pm
Does the Buddha ever explain Right View as the development of anicca-sanna? I can't recall it. Loosely speaking, of course, it may be "right", but this strikes me as a bit odd to use the term in this way. Any thoughts?
In those suttas that actually say something about anicca-saññā (as opposed to those that merely mention it by name) it appears to be associated with an advanced level of insight. The commonest context is that of the practice by which a non-returner abandons the "I am conceit" (by developing anicca-saññā) and advances to arahatta. The next most common is in connection with the attainment of stream-entry.

In the Abhidhamma anicca-saññā is taken to be the saññā that arises conascently with either sammā-diṭṭhi of the eightfold or sammā-ñāṇa of the tenfold path.

According to this understanding, the saññā in anicca-saññā isn't being used in any special sense; it's just the plain old third aggregate. If it didn't arise conascently at moments of insight, then the experience wouldn't be "marked"; not being marked it wouldn't be remembered; with no remembrance there would be no development - just moments of insight that occur and are immediately lost.

And so to answer your question, since the saññā in anicca-saññā is just the plain old third aggregate, it can't be the same as sammā-diṭṭhi, which is a mode of paññā, not saññā.
“Keep to your own pastures, bhikkhus, walk in the haunts where your fathers roamed.
If ye thus walk in them, Māra will find no lodgement, Māra will find no foothold.”
— Cakkavattisīhanāda Sutta

User avatar
Sam Vara
Posts: 6799
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Sussex, U.K.

Re: Right View and anicca

Post by Sam Vara »

Dhammanando wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 10:58 am
...
Thank you Bhante. :anjali:

User avatar
robertk
Posts: 3770
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: Right View and anicca

Post by robertk »

confusedlayman wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 8:21 am
. Upon hearing the Buddha, she had quickly attained the second step of purification, becoming a once-returner. She did not marry, but not because she had renounced marriage. In fact, when she saw the happiness of her two sisters, she became sad and lonely. Her spiritual strength did not suffice to overcome her depression. To the deep sorrow of her family, she wasted away, eating nothing, starving to death. She was reborn in the Tusita heaven

even anthapindaka (biggest donar of buddha) 3rd daughert even having right view and once returner stage, she did by depression because she still had self view and discrimination of her vs others. can someone explain the above story? if she had no self view, why would she because sad and lonely when there is no one to feel sad just arising of sad feeling depending on contact of her sence or intellect when she cognize external object as whole which is opposite of emptiness?
Because for the once returner there is still the arising of lobha, greed, and dosa , aversion.
Only wrong view has been eradicated.

User avatar
confusedlayman
Posts: 2184
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am
Location: Human Realm

Re: Right View and anicca

Post by confusedlayman »

robertk wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:19 am
confusedlayman wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 8:21 am
. Upon hearing the Buddha, she had quickly attained the second step of purification, becoming a once-returner. She did not marry, but not because she had renounced marriage. In fact, when she saw the happiness of her two sisters, she became sad and lonely. Her spiritual strength did not suffice to overcome her depression. To the deep sorrow of her family, she wasted away, eating nothing, starving to death. She was reborn in the Tusita heaven

even anthapindaka (biggest donar of buddha) 3rd daughert even having right view and once returner stage, she did by depression because she still had self view and discrimination of her vs others. can someone explain the above story? if she had no self view, why would she because sad and lonely when there is no one to feel sad just arising of sad feeling depending on contact of her sence or intellect when she cognize external object as whole which is opposite of emptiness?
Because for the once returner there is still the arising of lobha, greed, and dosa , aversion.
Only wrong view has been eradicated.
what is wrong view?
Master said dont neglect concentration ... practice jhana "O dhamma wheel users! "

sentinel
Posts: 3095
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: Right View and anicca

Post by sentinel »

Dhammanando wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 10:58 am

In the Abhidhamma anicca-saññā is taken to be the saññā that arises conascently with either sammā-diṭṭhi of the eightfold or sammā-ñāṇa of the tenfold path.
Bhante , i have a question .
Right view suppose to occur in the beginning of practice ie before one start to practise ? You said , 《sammā-diṭṭhi, which is a mode of paññā, not saññā》, how can Right view be paññā before one start to practise ?
Quality is not an act, it is a habit.

User avatar
robertk
Posts: 3770
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: Right View and anicca

Post by robertk »

confusedlayman wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:22 am
robertk wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:19 am
confusedlayman wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 8:21 am
. Upon hearing the Buddha, she had quickly attained the second step of purification, becoming a once-returner. She did not marry, but not because she had renounced marriage. In fact, when she saw the happiness of her two sisters, she became sad and lonely. Her spiritual strength did not suffice to overcome her depression. To the deep sorrow of her family, she wasted away, eating nothing, starving to death. She was reborn in the Tusita heaven

even anthapindaka (biggest donar of buddha) 3rd daughert even having right view and once returner stage, she did by depression because she still had self view and discrimination of her vs others. can someone explain the above story? if she had no self view, why would she because sad and lonely when there is no one to feel sad just arising of sad feeling depending on contact of her sence or intellect when she cognize external object as whole which is opposite of emptiness?
Because for the once returner there is still the arising of lobha, greed, and dosa , aversion.
Only wrong view has been eradicated.
what is wrong view?
The Abhidhamma explains that lobha arises either with or without wrong view. So the sotapanna and sakadagami can never have wrong view (ditthi ) but they are still stuck with lobha that is ditthigata-vippayuttam (without wrongview)..

https://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidh ... bhi-04.htm
T
he eight types of lobha-mula-citta are:

1. Accompanied by pleasant feeling, with wrong view, unprompted. (Somanassa-sahagatam ditthigata -sampayuttam, asankharikam ekam)

2. Accompanied by pleasant feeling, with wrong view, prompted. (Somanassa-sahagatam, ditthigata -sampayuttam, sasankharikam ekam)

3. Accompanied by pleasant feeling, without wrong view, unprompted. (Somanassa-sahagatam, ditthigata-vippayuttam , asankharikam ekam )

4. Accompanied by pleasant feeling, without wrong view, prompted. (Somanassa-sahagatam, ditthigata -vippayuttam, sasankharikam ekam)

5. Accompanied by indifferent feeling, with wrong view, unprompted. (Upekkha-sahagatam, ditthigata -sampayuttam, asankharikam ekam)

6. Accompanied by indifferent feeling, with wrong view, prompted. (Upekkha-sahagatam, ditthigata -sampayuttam, sasankharikam ekam)

7. Accompanied by indifferent feeling, without wrong view, unprompted. (Upekkha-sahagatam, ditthigata -vippayuttam, asankharikam ekam)

8. Accompanied by indifferent feeling, without wrong view, prompted. (Upekkha-sahagatam, ditthigata -vippayuttam, sasankhhrikam ekam)
Many different wrongviews- but the most deep seated is self view, sakya ditthi, atta ditthi.
I would say she (the daughter) was an outlier, as usually sotapanna and sakagami would have enough insight into lobha that it wouldn't cause such a crisis ..

User avatar
Dhammanando
Posts: 5563
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Location: Mae Wang Huai Rin, Li District, Lamphun

Re: Right View and anicca

Post by Dhammanando »

sentinel wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:59 am
Right view suppose to occur in the beginning of practice ie before one start to practise ? You said , 《sammā-diṭṭhi, which is a mode of paññā, not saññā》, how can Right view be paññā before one start to practise ?
Your question seems to be based on the assumption that bhāvanā-maya paññā is the only kind of paññā. But this isn't the case. Understanding via hearing/learning (suta-maya paññā) and understanding via thinking (cintā-maya paññā) both precede understanding via development.

Not only can there be paññā before one starts to practise, there MUST be or it will be wrong practice.
“Keep to your own pastures, bhikkhus, walk in the haunts where your fathers roamed.
If ye thus walk in them, Māra will find no lodgement, Māra will find no foothold.”
— Cakkavattisīhanāda Sutta

User avatar
robertk
Posts: 3770
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: Right View and anicca

Post by robertk »

And to add to ven. Dhammanando's excellent explanation.
Panna comes in various strengths, like all elements.

Think of aversion, dosa - it ranges from mild boredom to muderous rage.

Same with panna, it begins at a weak level but increases gradually if the right path is developed.

sentinel
Posts: 3095
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: Right View and anicca

Post by sentinel »

Dhammanando wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 1:33 pm
sentinel wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:59 am
Right view suppose to occur in the beginning of practice ie before one start to practise ? You said , 《sammā-diṭṭhi, which is a mode of paññā, not saññā》, how can Right view be paññā before one start to practise ?
Your question seems to be based on the assumption that bhāvanā-maya paññā is the only kind of paññā. But this isn't the case. Understanding via hearing/learning (suta-maya paññā) and understanding via thinking (cintā-maya paññā) both precede understanding via development.

Not only can there be paññā before one starts to practise, there MUST be or it will be wrong practice.
So , what is paññā ? Could you expand on the difference between Right view and paññā and sammā-ñāṇa ? Which sutta mentioned about paññā ?

Thanks
Quality is not an act, it is a habit.

User avatar
robertk
Posts: 3770
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: Right View and anicca

Post by robertk »

What is right view? The wisdom which there is on that occasion is understanding, search,
research, searching the truth, discernment, discrimination, differentiation,
erudition, proficiency, subtlety, criticism, reflection, analysis, breadth,
sagacity, leading, insight, intelligence, incitement; the faculty of wisdom,
the power of wisdom, the sword of wisdom, the stronghold of wisdom,
the light of wisdom, .
katamā tasmi samaye sammā-ditthi hoti? yā tasmi samaye paññā pajānanā vicayo
pavicayo dhammavicayo sallakkhaā upalakkhaā paccupalakkhaā paicca
kosalla nepuñña vebhavyā cintā upaparikkhā bhūrī medhā parināyikā vipassanā
sampajañña patodo paññā paññindriya paññā-bala paññā-sattha paññāpāsādo
paññā-āloko pañāñā-obhāso paññā-pajjoto paññā-ratana amoho
dhammavicayo sammā-dihi—aya tasmi samaye sammā-ditthi hoti, Dhs 12
20, 14 37, 63 297,

also netti pakarana
paññindriya paññābala adhipañññā sikkhā paññā paññākkhandho
dhammavicayasambojjhago ñāa sammā-ditthi tīraā vipassanā dhamme ñāa
atthe ñāa anvaye ñāa khaye ñāa anuppāde ñāa
anaññātaññassāmītindriya aññindriya aññātāvindriya cakkhu vijjā buddhi bhūri
medhā āloko, ya vā pana kiñci aññam pi eva jātiya paññāya eta vevacana,
Nettipakarana 54.
Right view and panna are synonyms

SarathW
Posts: 14089
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Right View and anicca

Post by SarathW »

Sam Vara wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 8:25 am
SarathW wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 8:05 am
Even non-Buddhists understand impermanence, suffering, and not-self.
I think Buddha was trying to teach us something more profound than that.
We have to examine what Buddha was thinking about it.
I still don't understand impermanence, suffering and non-self, being a slow learner. But if you can summarise the more profound stuff, I'll bookmark it for later! :thinking:
Hi Sam
I found the answer to your question in the following Sutta.
Dhattu-vibhanga Sutta

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

In a nutshell what is internal is what you grasp (Upadana)as I, me, and myself.
You have to see Anicca, Dukkha, and Anatta in internal, external and both.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

User avatar
Sam Vara
Posts: 6799
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Sussex, U.K.

Re: Right View and anicca

Post by Sam Vara »

SarathW wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:57 pm

Hi Sam
I found the answer to your question in the following Sutta.
Dhattu-vibhanga Sutta

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

In a nutshell what is internal is what you grasp (Upadana)as I, me, and myself.
You have to see Anicca, Dukkha, and Anatta in internal, external and both.
Thanks SarathW! :anjali:

sunnat
Posts: 523
Joined: Tue Apr 02, 2019 5:08 am

Re: Right View and anicca

Post by sunnat »

Further understanding (Suta-maya panna) and true knowledge, wisdom (Bhavana-maya Panna) of anicca can had by reading this meditation manual, and practicing according to it, by Saya Thet-gyi and Ledi Sayādaw Phayargyi
https://archive.org/download/UThetVipas ... assana.pdf
See 'Khanika and Santati' page 165 onwards

Post Reply