Can feeling create craving ?

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sentinel
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Can feeling create craving ?

Post by sentinel »

Sankharas shape consciousness but feelings create craving.
This was quoted by our member , but , feeling by itself , just like perception , does not "creates" ! Does it means , feeling becomes a creator ? Like God the creator !
“The foot feels the foot when it feels the ground.”

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DooDoot
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Re: Can feeling create craving ?

Post by DooDoot »

sentinel wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 8:12 am
This was quoted by our member , but , feeling by itself , just like perception , does not "creates" ! Does it means , feeling becomes a creator ? Like God the creator !
No. The creator of craving is sankhara khandha and not vedana khandha. But feeling is a requisite condition for craving. In other words, craving cannot exist without feeling.

Where as ignorance is not a requisite condition for consciousness because consciousness can exist without ignorance; such as the consciousness of Arahants exist without ignorance. Ignorance "shapes" consciousness but ignorance is not a "cause for the creation" of consciousness.

Don't sweat the small stuff. :smile:
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chownah
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Re: Can feeling create craving ?

Post by chownah »

Isn't craving a feeling?
chownah

santa100
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Re: Can feeling create craving ?

Post by santa100 »

chownah wrote:Isn't craving a feeling?
In everyday common palance? yes, but not according to the Dhamma's definition of the term. Vedana is more accurately defined as "sensation", which is just the registering of the raw feeling tones: pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral. And those 3 tones provides the conditions to the arising of craving or aversion, which belong to the Sankhara group.

SteRo
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Re: Can feeling create craving ?

Post by SteRo »

DooDoot wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 8:37 am
Where as ignorance is not a requisite condition for consciousness because consciousness can exist without ignorance; ...
Funny guy.
To the spheres of experience ("users") it may concern: When applying words no truth or reality is claimed. Language only knows the extremes of (+)-affirming experience ("is", "has", "does", etc.) and (-)-negating experience ("isn't", "hasn't", "doesn't", etc.) but it does not know the 'zero'-(0)-experience of non-apprehension. Therefore every linguistic expression might erroneously appear as claim though it is only a preliminary suggestion.

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Re: Can feeling create craving ?

Post by Spiny Norman »

SteRo wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 6:26 pm
DooDoot wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 8:37 am
Where as ignorance is not a requisite condition for consciousness because consciousness can exist without ignorance; ...
Funny guy.
:jumping:
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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confusedlayman
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Re: Can feeling create craving ?

Post by confusedlayman »

SteRo wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 6:26 pm
DooDoot wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 8:37 am
Where as ignorance is not a requisite condition for consciousness because consciousness can exist without ignorance; ...
Funny guy.
I think he refers to conciousness same as awareness?
Master said dont neglect concentration ... practice jhana "O dhamma wheel users! "

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DooDoot
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Re: Can feeling create craving ?

Post by DooDoot »

Spiny Norman wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 7:19 pm
SteRo wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 6:26 pm
DooDoot wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 8:37 am
Where as ignorance is not a requisite condition for consciousness because consciousness can exist without ignorance; ...
Funny guy.
:jumping:
Appears to be two wrong views above; possibly influenced by Mahayana & Brahmanistic solipsism; reminiscent of SN 14.15 . :thinking:
MN 148 wrote:Bhikkhus, dependent on the eye and forms, eye-consciousness arises; the meeting of the three is contact; with contact as condition there arises a feeling felt as pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant. When one is touched by a pleasant feeling, if one does not delight in it, welcome it, and remain holding to it, then the underlying tendency to lust does not lie within one. When one is touched by a painful feeling, if one does not sorrow, grieve and lament, does not weep beating one’s breast and become distraught, then the underlying tendency to aversion does not lie within one. When one is touched by a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling, if one understands as it actually is the origination, the disappearance, the gratification, the danger, and the escape in regard to that feeling, then the underlying tendency to ignorance does not lie within one. Bhikkhus, that one shall here and now make an end of suffering by abandoning the underlying tendency to lust for pleasant feeling, by abolishing the underlying tendency to aversion towards painful feeling, by extirpating the underlying tendency to ignorance in regard to neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling, by abandoning ignorance and arousing true knowledge—this is possible.

https://suttacentral.net/mn148/en/bodhi
SN 22.1 wrote:There is the case where a well-instructed disciple of the noble ones — who has regard for noble ones, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma; who has regard for men of integrity, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhammadoes not assume consciousness to be the self, or the self as possessing consciousness, or consciousness as in the self, or the self as in consciousness. He is not seized with the idea that 'I am consciousness' or 'Consciousness is mine.' As he is not seized with these ideas, his consciousness changes & alters, but he does not fall into sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress or despair over its change & alteration. This, householder, is how one is afflicted in body but unafflicted in mind.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
SN 22.47 wrote:When the uninstructed worldling is contacted by a feeling born of ignorance-contact, ‘I am’ occurs to him; ‘I am this’ occurs to him; ‘I will be’ and ‘I will not be,’ and ‘I will consist of form’ and ‘I will be formless,’ and ‘I will be percipient’ and ‘I will be nonpercipient’ and ‘I will be neither percipient nor nonpercipient’—these occur to him.

The five faculties remain right there, bhikkhus, but in regard to them the instructed noble disciple abandons ignorance and arouses true knowledge. With the fading away of ignorance and the arising of true knowledge, ‘I am’ does not occur to him; ‘I am this’ does not occur to him; ‘I will be’ and ‘I will not be,’ and ‘I will consist of form’ and ‘I will be formless,’ and ‘I will be percipient’ and ‘I will be nonpercipient’ and ‘I will be neither percipient nor nonpercipient’—these do not occur to him.”

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.47/en/bodhi
:alien:
confusedlayman wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 8:24 pm
I think he refers to conciousness same as awareness?
What is the Pali for "awareness (without consciousness)"? :thinking:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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chownah
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Re: Can feeling create craving ?

Post by chownah »

I think that there is a common misconception that the opposite of consciousness is unconsciousness.....and I also think that this conception comes from the common every day ideas about consciousness (and unconsciousness).

I think that the buddha's use of the words which are translated as "consciousness" is quite different in scope from the common every day ideas about "consciousness" as being the opposite of "unconsciousness"....

I think that any word that the buddha used which is translated as "consciousness" should not be assumed to mean that every day current idea of "consciousness" which is taken in relation to "unconsciousness"....

....I think that the everyday modern idea about "conscious" is probably more closely related to being percipient (I guess....don't know for sure...) which I guess would be more closely tied to perception than to consciousness.....although perception and consciousness are conjoined, not disjoined so I don't really know what to make of the distinction between being conscious and being percipient.

chownah

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confusedlayman
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Re: Can feeling create craving ?

Post by confusedlayman »

chownah wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 4:58 am
I think that there is a common misconception that the opposite of consciousness is unconsciousness.....and I also think that this conception comes from the common every day ideas about consciousness (and unconsciousness).

I think that the buddha's use of the words which are translated as "consciousness" is quite different in scope from the common every day ideas about "consciousness" as being the opposite of "unconsciousness"....

I think that any word that the buddha used which is translated as "consciousness" should not be assumed to mean that every day current idea of "consciousness" which is taken in relation to "unconsciousness"....

....I think that the everyday modern idea about "conscious" is probably more closely related to being percipient (I guess....don't know for sure...) which I guess would be more closely tied to perception than to consciousness.....although perception and consciousness are conjoined, not disjoined so I don't really know what to make of the distinction between being conscious and being percipient.

chownah
conciousness is when u are aware of object. when u are not aware of anything even the awareness, then its just awareness due to brain funciton. even that awareness (which u can see by concious of immediate past moment recollection) is impermanent each moment and will cease without remainder at end .. that is why conciousness and awareness is differentiated by their function.
Master said dont neglect concentration ... practice jhana "O dhamma wheel users! "

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confusedlayman
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Re: Can feeling create craving ?

Post by confusedlayman »

DooDoot wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 9:04 pm
Spiny Norman wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 7:19 pm
SteRo wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 6:26 pm


Funny guy.
:jumping:
Appears to be two wrong views above; possibly influenced by Mahayana & Brahmanistic solipsism; reminiscent of SN 14.15 . :thinking:
MN 148 wrote:Bhikkhus, dependent on the eye and forms, eye-consciousness arises; the meeting of the three is contact; with contact as condition there arises a feeling felt as pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant. When one is touched by a pleasant feeling, if one does not delight in it, welcome it, and remain holding to it, then the underlying tendency to lust does not lie within one. When one is touched by a painful feeling, if one does not sorrow, grieve and lament, does not weep beating one’s breast and become distraught, then the underlying tendency to aversion does not lie within one. When one is touched by a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling, if one understands as it actually is the origination, the disappearance, the gratification, the danger, and the escape in regard to that feeling, then the underlying tendency to ignorance does not lie within one. Bhikkhus, that one shall here and now make an end of suffering by abandoning the underlying tendency to lust for pleasant feeling, by abolishing the underlying tendency to aversion towards painful feeling, by extirpating the underlying tendency to ignorance in regard to neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling, by abandoning ignorance and arousing true knowledge—this is possible.

https://suttacentral.net/mn148/en/bodhi
SN 22.1 wrote:There is the case where a well-instructed disciple of the noble ones — who has regard for noble ones, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma; who has regard for men of integrity, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhammadoes not assume consciousness to be the self, or the self as possessing consciousness, or consciousness as in the self, or the self as in consciousness. He is not seized with the idea that 'I am consciousness' or 'Consciousness is mine.' As he is not seized with these ideas, his consciousness changes & alters, but he does not fall into sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress or despair over its change & alteration. This, householder, is how one is afflicted in body but unafflicted in mind.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
SN 22.47 wrote:When the uninstructed worldling is contacted by a feeling born of ignorance-contact, ‘I am’ occurs to him; ‘I am this’ occurs to him; ‘I will be’ and ‘I will not be,’ and ‘I will consist of form’ and ‘I will be formless,’ and ‘I will be percipient’ and ‘I will be nonpercipient’ and ‘I will be neither percipient nor nonpercipient’—these occur to him.

The five faculties remain right there, bhikkhus, but in regard to them the instructed noble disciple abandons ignorance and arouses true knowledge. With the fading away of ignorance and the arising of true knowledge, ‘I am’ does not occur to him; ‘I am this’ does not occur to him; ‘I will be’ and ‘I will not be,’ and ‘I will consist of form’ and ‘I will be formless,’ and ‘I will be percipient’ and ‘I will be nonpercipient’ and ‘I will be neither percipient nor nonpercipient’—these do not occur to him.”

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.47/en/bodhi
:alien:
confusedlayman wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 8:24 pm
I think he refers to conciousness same as awareness?
What is the Pali for "awareness (without consciousness)"? :thinking:
viññanam anidassanam is pali word for awareness (conciousness without surface)
Master said dont neglect concentration ... practice jhana "O dhamma wheel users! "

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DooDoot
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Re: Can feeling create craving ?

Post by DooDoot »

confusedlayman wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 7:32 am
viññanam anidassanam is pali word for awareness (conciousness without surface)
viññanam anidassanam is not "awareness". regardless, it was asked: "What is the Pali for "awareness (without consciousness)"?
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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confusedlayman
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Re: Can feeling create craving ?

Post by confusedlayman »

DooDoot wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 11:54 am
confusedlayman wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 7:32 am
viññanam anidassanam is pali word for awareness (conciousness without surface)
viññanam anidassanam is not "awareness". regardless, it was asked: "What is the Pali for "awareness (without consciousness)"?
conciousness without surface is awareness that doesnt lock to any object. it is the basic function of mind. pali word for awareness is something else but what is awareness according to you?
Master said dont neglect concentration ... practice jhana "O dhamma wheel users! "

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DooDoot
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Re: Can feeling create craving ?

Post by DooDoot »

confusedlayman wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 7:02 pm
conciousness without surface is awareness that doesnt lock to any object. it is the basic function of mind. pali word for awareness is something else but what is awareness according to you?
I am not aware of any Pali word for "awareness" that is different to "consciousness" ("viññāṇa"), or Pali "ñāṇa" roots related to "consciousness" & words related to "seeing" ("passati"). Also, consciousness without surface according to the suttas was something taught to non-Buddhists therefore appears not a teaching for Buddhists. Consciousness without surface does not appear to be awareness that doesn't lock to any object. Consciousness without surface (viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ anantaṃ sabbatopabhaṃ; DN 11) sounds like a non-discriminative consciousness, where there are not worldly labels of long & short, coarse & fine, fair & foul and naming of forms. The consciousness that does not lock onto any objects is called appatiṭṭha viññāṇa (SN 22.53). You sound confused.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

chownah
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Re: Can feeling create craving ?

Post by chownah »

SN 22.47 wrote:
When the uninstructed worldling is contacted by a feeling born of ignorance-contact, ‘I am’ occurs to him; ‘I am this’ occurs to him; ‘I will be’ and ‘I will not be,’ and ‘I will consist of form’ and ‘I will be formless,’ and ‘I will be percipient’ and ‘I will be nonpercipient’ and ‘I will be neither percipient nor nonpercipient’—these occur to him.

Seems like the idea of percipience presented here is a lot like "awareness".....what is the pali word being used here for percipient?
chownah

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