The meaning of samudaya

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Spiny Norman
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The meaning of samudaya

Post by Spiny Norman »

This came up in another thread. I think samudaya means dependent origination, as applied to the Second Truth and to DO.
So the DO suttas in SN12 describe one nidana arising in dependence upon the previous one. For example, feeling originates from contact, which means that feeling aries in dependence upon contact. Similarly, craving originates from feeling, which means craving arises in dependence upon feeling.
Put simply, it's all this/that conditionality, origination and cessation in dependence upon conditions.

However there seems to be an alternative view, that in DO samudaya means one nidana influencing or shaping the next, eg formations "shaping" consciousness.

Thoughts?
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DooDoot
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Re: The meaning of samudaya

Post by DooDoot »

Spiny Norman wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 10:14 am
However there seems to be an alternative view, that in DO samudaya means one nidana influencing or shaping the next, eg formations "shaping" consciousness.
Every nidana is shaped by ignorance.
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retrofuturist
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Re: The meaning of samudaya

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Spiny,

Perhaps those two meanings you present are not mutually exclusive?

Although I would suggest that the first of those two meanings is primary.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)

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Re: The meaning of samudaya

Post by DooDoot »

Spiny Norman wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 10:14 am
For example, feeling originates from contact, which means that feeling aries in dependence upon contact. Similarly, craving originates from feeling, which means craving arises in dependence upon feeling.
Lol - the above chooses the easy or kindergarten examples.

Obviously consciousness does not create a mind-body. Obviously sankharas do not create consciousness. Obviously ignorance does not create kaya-sankhara (breathing). :roll:
retrofuturist wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 10:19 am
Perhaps those two meanings you present are not mutually exclusive?

Although I would suggest that the first of those two meanings is primary.
I wouldn't commit to non-sequitur questions. Sankharas shape consciousness but feelings create craving. This said the shaped consciousness is dependent upon sankhara. The two cases in the question are non-sequitur due to a misuse of language.
"Don't say that, Ananda. Don't say that. Deep is this dependent co-arising, and deep its appearance. It's because of not understanding and not penetrating this Dhamma that this generation is like a tangled skein, a knotted ball of string, like matted rushes and reeds, and does not go beyond transmigration [from chatsite to chatsite] , beyond the planes of deprivation, woe, and bad destinations.

:rofl:
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Re: The meaning of samudaya

Post by DooDoot »

Spiny Norman wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 10:14 am
I think samudaya means dependent origination, as applied to the Second Truth and to DO.
The word used in D.O. is paccaya (condition). Paccaya is not synonymous with cause (hetu). You appear to be thinking in terms of "cause" rather than in terms of "condition". Condition is not the same as cause. For example, in AN 10.61, it is said the five hindrances are a condition for ignorance. But obviously the five hindrances do not cause ignorance because it is the opposite. The five hindrances are caused by ignorance but they are a condition for the maintenance of ignorance. Paccaya is not cause. The Buddha used the word paccaya and not cause in dependent origination. In SN 22.82, the Buddha says nama-rupa is the cause of consciousness. But in SN 12.2, the Buddha said consciousness is a condition for nama-rupa. These teachings are obviously different. Cause does not necessarily mean condition & condition does not necessarily mean cause, even though sometimes the two words are used together. For example, suttas say the eye & forms are the cause & condition for the arising of eye-consciousness. Here, this does not refer to being "shaped" because the "arising" ("uppajjati") here is not "samudaya".
SN 22.5 wrote:And what is the origin of form, feeling, perception, choices and consciousness?

Ko ca, bhikkhave, rūpassa samudayo, ko vedanāya samudayo, ko saññāya samudayo, ko saṅkhārānaṃ samudayo, ko viññāṇassa samudayo?

It’s when a mendicant approves, welcomes and keeps clinging. (Sujato)

Here, bhikkhus, one seeks delight, one welcomes, one remains holding. (Bodhi)

Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu abhinandati abhivadati ajjhosāya tiṭṭhati.

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.5/en/sujato
While the first 8 conditions are not yet upadana (attachment), they all contain a type of "abhinandati" (approval) & abhivadati (welcoming). For example, asava flowing out of ignorance are old habits, which are forms of approval. Not cutting the resultant sankharas at nama-rupa are also a type of "abhinandati" (approval). Giving inappropriate attention (manasikara) to sankharas at nama-rupa is a type of "abhinandati" (approval). Thus every condition in D.O is a "samudaya" because each condition has an underlying current of "abhinandati" (approval) & defilement (asava). When D.O. manifests, there is no resistance to defilement & ignorance. Thus it is samudaya (and not uppajjati). Samudaya may be similar to upapajjati but it is not similar to uppajjati.
73. The fool seeks undeserved reputation, precedence among monks, authority over monasteries, and honor among householders.

74. "Let both laymen and monks think that it was done by me. In every work, great and small, let them follow me" — such is the ambition of the fool; thus his desire and pride increase.

:tongue:
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sentinel
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Re: The meaning of samudaya

Post by sentinel »

DooDoot wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 10:26 am
Sankharas shape consciousness but feelings create craving.
I doubt that feeling create craving . It is due to ignorance that craving arises.
Quality is not an act, it is a habit.

chownah
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Re: The meaning of samudaya

Post by chownah »

I think it would make things much clearer if these things were discussed with respect to the ideas of "necessary" and "sufficient".
A necessary condition is one which must be present for something to occur....a necessary condition does not guarantee that something will occur but the absence of a necessary condition will guarantee that something does not occur.

A sufficient condition means that when it is present it is guaranteed that something will occur.....there can be more than one sufficient condition each of which would guarantee that something will occur (for instance being shot in the heart is a sufficient condition for death but having ones head cut off is also sufficient condition for death).

If a necessary and sufficient condition happens that means that it is guaranteed that something will occur and it is guaranteed that if that necessary and sufficient condition does not happen then that something will not happen.

Really this makes it much easier to know what is being said.
(Note: please do check to be sure that I have presented these three definitions correctly)
chownah

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Re: The meaning of samudaya

Post by DooDoot »

sentinel wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 12:48 pm
I doubt that feeling create craving . It is due to ignorance that craving arises.
Its both. Feeling is the citta sankhara, which means it sankharas (fabricates) the citta to have craving. But yes, as i posted, all conditions of D.O. are either shaped or produced by ignorance. Refer to MN 148, here.
Bhikkhus, dependent on the eye and forms, eye-consciousness arises; the meeting of the three is contact; with contact as condition there arises a feeling felt as pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant. When one is touched by a pleasant feeling, if one delights in it, welcomes it, and remains holding to it, then the underlying tendency to lust lies within one. When one is touched by a painful feeling, if one sorrows, grieves and laments, weeps beating one’s breast and becomes distraught, then the underlying tendency to aversion lies within one. When one is touched by a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling, if one does not understand as it actually is the origination, the disappearance, the gratification, the danger, and the escape in regard to that feeling, then the underlying tendency to ignorance lies within one. Bhikkhus, that one shall here and now make an end of suffering without abandoning the underlying tendency to lust for pleasant feeling, without abolishing the underlying tendency to aversion towards painful feeling, without extirpating the underlying tendency to ignorance in regard to neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling, without abandoning ignorance and arousing true knowledge—this is impossible.
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Re: The meaning of samudaya

Post by sentinel »

DooDoot wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 9:30 pm

Its both. Feeling is the citta sankhara, which means it sankharas (fabricates) the citta to have craving. But yes, as i posted, all conditions of D.O. are either shaped or produced by ignorance. Refer to MN 148, here.
Bhikkhus, dependent on the eye and forms, eye-consciousness arises; the meeting of the three is contact; with contact as condition there arises a feeling felt as pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant. When one is touched by a pleasant feeling, if one delights in it, welcomes it, and remains holding to it, then the underlying tendency to lust lies within one.



You cant used the word create or fabricate , feeling does not "produce" lust ! Feeling acts as an agent or base for craving to arise . When one delights in it , they is a descending of consciousness with attachment .
Quality is not an act, it is a habit.

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Re: The meaning of samudaya

Post by DooDoot »

sentinel wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 4:23 am
Feeling acts as an agent or base for craving to arise .
Same thing. Don't sweat the small stuff. Best wishes :)
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Re: The meaning of samudaya

Post by Srilankaputra »

There is an interesting simile given in Sn12. 52 that seems to illustrates the meaning of samudaya and Nirodha, which appears to be two interrelated concepts.

Samudaya;
Suppose a bonfire was burning with ten, twenty, thirty, or forty loads of wood. And from time to time someone would toss in dry grass, cow dung, or wood. Fueled and sustained by that, the bonfire would burn for a long time
Nirodha;
Suppose a bonfire was burning with ten, twenty, thirty, or forty loads of wood. And no-one would toss in dry grass, cow dung, or wood from time to time. As the original fuel is used up and no more is added, the bonfire would be extinguished due to lack of fuel.
As I understand it, the fire stands for existence, where birth and death are occasional splutters of the flame.

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.52/en/sujato
O seeing one,we for refuge go to thee!
O mighty sage do thou our teacher be!

Paccuppannañca yo dhammaṃ,
Tattha tattha vipassati

“Yato yato mano nivāraye,
Na dukkhameti naṃ tato tato;
Sa sabbato mano nivāraye,
Sa sabbato dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

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Ceisiwr
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Re: The meaning of samudaya

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Srilankaputra wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 5:33 am
There is an interesting simile given in Sn12. 52 that seems to illustrates the meaning of samudaya and Nirodha, which appears to be two interrelated concepts.

Samudaya;
Suppose a bonfire was burning with ten, twenty, thirty, or forty loads of wood. And from time to time someone would toss in dry grass, cow dung, or wood. Fueled and sustained by that, the bonfire would burn for a long time
Nirodha;
Suppose a bonfire was burning with ten, twenty, thirty, or forty loads of wood. And no-one would toss in dry grass, cow dung, or wood from time to time. As the original fuel is used up and no more is added, the bonfire would be extinguished due to lack of fuel.
As I understand it, the fire stands for existence, where birth and death are occasional splutters of the flame.

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.52/en/sujato
Of course, when a fire goes out there is a cooling down period before it is fully extinguished:
“Bhikkhus, there are these two Nibbāna-elements. What are the two? The Nibbāna-element with residue left and the Nibbāna-element with no residue left.

“What, bhikkhus, is the Nibbāna-element with residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and pain. It is the extinction of attachment, hate, and delusion in him that is called the Nibbāna-element with residue left.

“Now what, bhikkhus, is the Nibbāna-element with no residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant … completely released through final knowledge. For him, here in this very life, all that is experienced, not being delighted in, will be extinguished. That, bhikkhus, is called the Nibbāna-element with no residue left.

“These, bhikkhus, are the two Nibbāna-elements.”

These two Nibbāna-elements were made known
By the Seeing One, stable and unattached:
One is the element seen here and now
With residue, but with the cord of being destroyed;
The other, having no residue for the future,
Is that wherein all modes of being utterly cease.

Having understood the unconditioned state,
Released in mind with the cord of being destroyed,
They have attained to the Dhamma-essence.
Delighting in the destruction (of craving),
Those stable ones have abandoned all being.
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Metta

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“Bhikkhus, whatever is not yours, abandon it. When you have abandoned it, that will lead to your welfare and happiness. ” SN 35:101

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Re: The meaning of samudaya

Post by ToVincent »

To understand what samudaya means, one has to understand its "counterpart" vaya. As in SN 52.1 (https://justpaste.it/1d9uy)

///////////////////////

Samudaya
samudayati: samudeti [saṃ-√ud-√i]
Samudeti [saṁ+udeti]
Udeti [ud + eti of √i ]

Vaya
[Sk.व्यय vyaya - [ vy-aya ] - (act. of वी vī = vi+√i)

with:
√ उद् ud OR √ उन्द् und
- to flow or issue out , spring (as water) (RV. AV. ŚBr. KātyŚr. ĀśvGṛ.)
√ इ i
- to go - to flow - spread (RV. AV. ŚBr. MBh.)

&

Saṃ = collectively, jointly, synergetically.

Vi = apart, asunder.

Note: what the mano turns towards to (manasikāra), is the synergistic flow of the khandhas from the namarupa nidana.

___________

See also: udayabbaya

and

Paṭicca-samuppāda & Paṭicca-Samuppanna

Paṭicca-Samuppāda means:
What springs together [flows out & perishes] (samuppāda/samutpāda), to (appear and) be understood (paṭicca/pratītya).
&
Paṭicca-Samuppanna means:
What has sprung together [flown out & perished] (samuppanna/samutpanna), to (appear and) be understood (paṭicca/pratītya).

(Explained here https://justpaste.it/60c6t)

.
.
Last edited by ToVincent on Mon May 18, 2020 6:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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DooDoot
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Re: The meaning of samudaya

Post by DooDoot »

ToVincent wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 6:27 am
To understand what samudaya means, one has to understand its "counterpart" vaya. As in SN 52.1...
My working hypothesis is the above might be fake dhamma because i could only find "samudayavaya" in four suttas (SN 47.40 & SN 52.1), two of which (MN 10 & DN 22) i personally regard as fake.

I think 'samudayavaya' does not have the same meaning as 'udayabbayā' (found in many suttas).
vyaya
expense, loss, decay SN.iv.68, SN.iv.140; Mil.393 (as abbaya) avyayena (instr.) safely DN.i.72. Cp. veyyāyika vyāyika.

vi + aya, of i; the assimilation form is vaya

https://suttacentral.net/define/vyaya
'Udaya" appears to mean "arising"; where as "samudaya" appears to mean "co-arising".

"Co-arising" appears to mean an "arising-together-with-craving", as explained in SN 22.5. In other words, "samudaya" appears to apply to the upadana-khandha: aggregates subject to clinging.

Where as 'udayabbayā' appears to apply to the mere five aggregates (khandhānaṃ udayabbayaṃ), as found in many suttas, such as Thag 1.23; Iti 111; Thig 5.6; AN 4.12; and Dhp 374.

For example, the language in MN 10, on the subject of the five aggregates subject to clinging is different to AN 4.41, MN 122, SN 22.5, etc, as follows:
AN 4.41 wrote:5.2It’s when a mendicant meditates observing rise and fall in the five grasping aggregates.

Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu pañcasu upādānakkhandhesu udayabbayānupassī viharati:

5.3‘Such is form, such is the origin of form, such is the ending of form.
‘iti rūpaṃ, iti rūpassa samudayo, iti rūpassa atthaṅgamo;

5.4Such is feeling, such is the origin of feeling, such is the ending of feeling.
iti vedanā, iti vedanāya samudayo, iti vedanāya atthaṅgamo;

5.5Such is perception, such is the origin of perception, such is the ending of perception.
iti saññā, iti saññāya samudayo, iti saññāya atthaṅgamo;

5.6Such are choices, such is the origin of choices, such is the ending of choices.
iti saṅkhārā, iti saṅkhārānaṃ samudayo, iti saṅkhārānaṃ atthaṅgamo;

5.7Such is consciousness, such is the origin of consciousness, such is the ending of consciousness.’
iti viññāṇaṃ, iti viññāṇassa samudayo, iti viññāṇassa atthaṅgamo’ti.

5.8This is the way of developing immersion further that leads to the ending of defilements.
Ayaṃ, bhikkhave, samādhibhāvanā bhāvitā bahulīkatā āsavānaṃ khayāya saṃvattati.
MN 10 wrote: 38.1Furthermore, a mendicant meditates by observing an aspect of principles with respect to the five grasping aggregates.

Puna caparaṃ, bhikkhave, bhikkhu dhammesu dhammānupassī viharati pañcasu upādānakkhandhesu.

38.2And how does a mendicant meditate observing an aspect of principles with respect to the five grasping aggregates?

Kathañca pana, bhikkhave, bhikkhu dhammesu dhammānupassī viharati pañcasu pādānakkhandhesu?

38.3It’s when a mendicant contemplates:

Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu:

38.4‘Such is form, such is the origin of form, such is the ending of form.
‘iti rūpaṃ, iti rūpassa samudayo, iti rūpassa atthaṅgamo;

38.5Such is feeling, such is the origin of feeling, such is the ending of feeling.
iti vedanā, iti vedanāya samudayo, iti vedanāya atthaṅgamo;

38.6Such is perception, such is the origin of perception, such is the ending of perception.
iti saññā, iti saññāya samudayo, iti saññāya atthaṅgamo;

38.7Such are choices, such is the origin of choices, such is the ending of choices.
iti saṅkhārā, iti saṅkhārānaṃ samudayo, iti saṅkhārānaṃ atthaṅgamo;

38.8Such is consciousness, such is the origin of consciousness, such is the ending of consciousness.’
iti viññāṇaṃ, iti viññāṇassa samudayo, iti viññāṇassa atthaṅgamo’ti;

39.1And so they meditate observing an aspect of principles internally …
iti ajjhattaṃ vā dhammesu dhammānupassī viharati, bahiddhā vā dhammesu dhammānupassī viharati, ajjhattabahiddhā vā dhammesu dhammānupassī viharati;

They meditate observing the principles as liable to originate, as liable to vanish, and as liable to both originate and vanish.

samudayadhammānupassī vā dhammesu viharati, vayadhammānupassī vā dhammesu viharati, samudayavayadhammānupassī vā dhammesu viharati.

39.5That’s how a mendicant meditates by observing an aspect of principles with respect to the five grasping aggregates.

Evampi kho, bhikkhave, bhikkhu dhammesu dhammānupassī viharati pañcasu upādānakkhandhesu.
Note: udayabbayā appears used in AN 4.41 in relation to the clinging-aggregates because the word 'samudaya' is later used to explain what the udayabbayā of the clinging-aggregates is, namely, "samudaya". In short, I think the use of the terminology "samudayavaya" in MN 10, etc, is dhammically wrong, as i suggested months ago, here.
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ToVincent
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Re: The meaning of samudaya

Post by ToVincent »

DooDoot wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 6:53 am
My WORKING hypothesis is the above might be fake dhamma because i could only find "samudayavaya" in four suttas (SN 47.40 & SN 52.1), two of which (MN 10 & DN 22) i personally regard as fake.
"Fake dhamma"!?!?!
Here again this sectarian extremist tone. I hope I won't get any fatwa from what I said.

My "fake dhamma", or your "pocket-sized analytic thinking"?

Your last post shows how remote is your understanding, from the usual sureties of your tone.
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=37182#p561257.

Keep working (in progress).
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