Mental Standpoints

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Ceisiwr
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Mental Standpoints

Post by Ceisiwr »

Greetings everyone,

What does it mean to have a “mental standpoint” in relation to form, feelings etc?

Householder, through the destruction, fading away, cessation, giving up, and relinquishment of desire, lust, delight, craving, engagement and clinging, mental standpoints, adherences, and underlying tendencies towards the form element, the mind is said to be well liberated.
https://suttacentral.net/sn22.4/en/bodhi
“For that is false, bhikkhu, which has a deceptive nature, and that is true which has an undeceptive nature—Nibbāna. Therefore a bhikkhu possessing this truth possesses the supreme foundation of truth. For this, bhikkhu, is the supreme noble truth, namely, Nibbāna, which has an undeceptive nature.” MN 140

SteRo
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Re: Mental Standpoints

Post by SteRo »

Ceisiwr wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 2:55 am
Greetings everyone,

What does it mean to have a “mental standpoint” in relation to form, feelings etc?

Householder, through the destruction, fading away, cessation, giving up, and relinquishment of desire, lust, delight, craving, engagement and clinging, mental standpoints, adherences, and underlying tendencies towards the form element, the mind is said to be well liberated.
https://suttacentral.net/sn22.4/en/bodhi
It means 'to stand in/on or 'abide in/on' or 'grasp an idea [a composite of the aggregates] as being real'

JohnK
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Re: Mental Standpoints

Post by JohnK »

A few thoughts.
Let's look at Ven. Sujato's translation, too:
...desire, greed, relishing, and craving; any attraction, grasping, mental fixation, insistence, and underlying tendencies.
and compare the series to Ven. Bodhi's as posted above:
...desire, lust, delight, craving, engagement and clinging, mental standpoints, adherences, and underlying tendencies
Without knowing the Pali, I suspect Ven. Sujato's "mental fixation" is his chosen translation for the same Pali term as Ven. Bodhi's "standpoint"-- anybody want to chime in on that?
It is not always clear when there is a series of similar terms, whether they are just synonyms or whether they each have a significant nuance of meaning.
"Mental fixation" feels clearly like a type of grasping. "Mental standpoint" is perhaps a more thought-provoking choice. Certainly one might consider it skillful, for example, to hold the mental standpoint that the aggregates are not-self. But if that is "merely" a mental standpoint (vs. actual knowledge), it is not enough for liberation. "Standpoint" does carry some sense of taking a stand on a view.
Those who grasp at perceptions & views wander the internet creating friction. [based on Sn4:9,v.847]

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DooDoot
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Re: Mental Standpoints

Post by DooDoot »

Ceisiwr wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 2:55 am
What does it mean to have a “mental standpoint”...
adhiṭṭhāna

fr. adhi + sthā

https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/stha
PTS Pali English Dictionary
˚ṭha
(˚ṭṭha) (adj. suffix) standing, as opposed to either lying down or moving; located, being based on, founded on (e.g. appa˚ based on little DN.i.143): see kappa˚ (lasting a k.), kūṭa˚ (immovable) gaha˚ (founding a house, householder), dhamma˚, nava˚ vehāsa˚ (= vihan-ga)
■ (n.) a stand i.e. a place for goṭṭha a stable.

from tiṭṭhati

https://suttacentral.net/define/%E1%B9%ADha
adhiṭṭhāti
adhi + ṭhā + a
stands firmly; determines; fixes one's attention on.

https://suttacentral.net/define/adhi%E1 ... Dh%C4%81ti
Householder, through the destruction, fading away, cessation, giving up and relinquishment of desire, lust, delight, craving, engagement and clinging, mental standpoints, adherences, and underlying tendencies towards the form element, the mind is said to be well liberated.

Rūpadhātuyā kho, gahapati, yo chando yo rāgo yā nandī yā taṇhā ye upayupādānā cetaso adhiṭṭhānābhinivesānusayā te tathāgatassa pahīnā ucchinnamūlā tālāvatthukatā anabhāvaṃkatā āyatiṃ anuppādadhammā.
Note: adhiṭṭhānābhinivesānusayā is a word compound, which might apply to the "cetaso" :shrug: . In other words, it appears the 'adhiṭṭhāna' may not exclusively apply to the 'cetaso'. Thus, breaking up the Pali, it is: cetaso adhiṭṭhāna ābhinivesā anusayā
Volo wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 11:52 am
...
why is adhiṭṭhānābhinivesānusayā in a compound? also, what is the case of rūpadhātuyā? thanks :smile:
Last edited by DooDoot on Sat Apr 04, 2020 10:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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justindesilva
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Re: Mental Standpoints

Post by justindesilva »

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 4:55 am
Ceisiwr wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 2:55 am
What does it mean to have a “mental standpoint”...
adhiṭṭhāna

fr. adhi + sthā

https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/stha
Householder, through the destruction, fading away, cessation, giving up and relinquishment of desire, lust, delight, craving, engagement and clinging, mental standpoints, adherences, and underlying tendencies towards the form element, the mind is said to be well liberated.
Aditthana in Sinhala is Adisthana. It means self determination of a wishful state of mind. The 8th of 10 paramitha is also Adisthana. People after offering flowers and chanting to Lord Buddha often in sickness to get well and to overcome difficulties make a Adisthana , also called Adisthana Pooja.
Hence the term mental standpoint could be closer.
But an examination of ADISHTANA, in ten paramis will give a better idea.

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Volo
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Re: Mental Standpoints

Post by Volo »

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 4:55 am
Householder, through the destruction, fading away, cessation, giving up and relinquishment of desire, lust, delight, craving, engagement and clinging, mental standpoints, adherences, and underlying tendencies towards the form element, the mind is said to be well liberated.

rūpadhātuyā kho, gahapati, yo chando yo rāgo yā nandī yā taṇhā ye upayupādānā cetaso adhiṭṭhānābhinivesānusayā, tesaṃ khayā virāgā nirodhā cāgā paṭinissaggā cittaṃ suvimuttanti vuccati
You took pali from a bit different sutta. I corrected it.
Note: adhiṭṭhānābhinivesānusayā is a word compound, which might apply to the "cetaso"
We can take it either as dvanda compound or as simple sandhi (words combined together due to euphonic reasons). Thus, usually they would try to avoid in Pali two vowels after each other, especially if vowels are the same (like ā + a, etc, then parts of the words are merged): adhiṭṭhānā abhinivesā anusayā (all three in Pl Nom). In the case of dvanda compound cetaso would apply to all three words, in the case of sandhi - only to adhiṭṭhānā.
why is adhiṭṭhānābhinivesānusayā in a compound?
They might form some kind of unity, for example they might often be used together. But it might be sandhi as well.
also, what is the case of rūpadhātuyā?
I would probably take it as Loc, in its idiomatic meaning "with respect to" (form element).

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DooDoot
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Re: Mental Standpoints

Post by DooDoot »

justindesilva wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 6:48 am
Aditthana in Sinhala is Adisthana. It means self determination of a wishful state of mind. The 8th of 10 paramitha is also Adisthana. But an examination of ADISHTANA, in ten paramis will give a better idea.
Thank you Justin. It appears to be an interesting word. For example, it is used in a completely supramundane manner in MN 140, to refer to Nibbana:
‘This person has four foundations.’
‘Caturādhiṭṭhāno ayaṃ, bhikkhu, puriso’ti—

That’s what I said, but why did I say it?
iti kho panetaṃ vuttaṃ. Kiñcetaṃ paṭicca vuttaṃ?

The foundations of wisdom, truth, generosity, and peace.
Paññādhiṭṭhāno, saccādhiṭṭhāno, cāgādhiṭṭhāno, upasamādhiṭṭhāno.

Therefore a mendicant thus endowed is endowed with the ultimate foundation of wisdom.
Tasmā evaṃ samannāgato bhikkhu iminā paramena paññādhiṭṭhānena samannāgato hoti.

For this is the ultimate noble wisdom, namely,
Esā hi, bhikkhu, paramā ariyā paññā yadidaṃ—

the knowledge of the ending of suffering.
sabbadukkhakkhaye ñāṇaṃ.

Their freedom, being founded on truth, is unshakable.
Tassa sā vimutti sacce ṭhitā akuppā hoti.

For that which is false has a deceptive nature, while that which is true has an undeceptive nature—extinguishment.
Tañhi, bhikkhu, musā yaṃ mosadhammaṃ, taṃ saccaṃ yaṃ amosadhammaṃ nibbānaṃ.

Therefore a mendicant thus endowed is endowed with the ultimate foundation of truth.
Tasmā evaṃ samannāgato bhikkhu iminā paramena saccādhiṭṭhānena samannāgato hoti.

For this is the ultimate noble truth, namely,
Etañhi, bhikkhu, paramaṃ ariyasaccaṃ yadidaṃ—

that which has an undeceptive nature—extinguishment.
amosadhammaṃ nibbānaṃ.

https://suttacentral.net/mn140/en/sujato

Adhiṭṭhāna {Adhitthana} (nt.) [fr. adhi + sthā] 1. decision, resolution, self-determination, will (cp.
on this meaning Cpd. 62) D III.229 (where 4 are enumd., viz. paððā°, sacca° cāga° upasama°); J
I.23; V.174; Ps I.108; II.171 sq., 207; DhsA 166 (cp. Dhs. trsl. 44). - 2. mentioned in bad sense
with abhinivesa and anusaya, obstinacy, prejudice and bias M I.136; III.31, 240; S II.17; III.10,
135, 194. - As adj. (-°) applying oneself to, bent on A III.363. - 3. looking after, management,
direction, power Miln 309 (devānaṃ); PvA 141 (so read for adhitaṭṭhāna). [adiṭṭhāna as PvA
89, used as explanatory for āvāsa, should perhaps be read adhiṭṭhāna in the sense of fixed,
permanent, abode].
:candle:
Volo wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 7:13 am
They might form some kind of unity, for example they might often be used together. But it might be sandhi as well.
Thank you Volo. I think the sandhi looks reasonable. I can't discern any point in a dvanda. Regards :smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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DooDoot
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Re: Mental Standpoints

Post by DooDoot »

Ceisiwr wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 2:55 am
What does it mean to have a “mental standpoint” in relation to form, feelings etc?
hi Craig. I tend towards Ven. Sujato's translation. I think a related key term is "ṭhita", which can mean "fixed". I think in the context, cetaso adhiṭṭhānā means holding a fixed rigid mental standpoint/viewpoint about the five aggregates that results in adherence to/settling in (ābhinivesā) that viewpoint & reinforces the related underlying tendencies (ānusayā).
ṭhita
pp. of tiṭṭhati
stood; stayed; stationary; immovable; one who stays.
:candle:
Volo wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 7:13 am
They might form some kind of unity, for example they might often be used together. But it might be sandhi as well.
Maybe i changed my mind (cetaso). I am sensing a dvanda, such as "fixed-adherent-tendencies of mind'. Regards :smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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Volo
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Re: Mental Standpoints

Post by Volo »

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 10:20 am
Maybe i changed my mind (cetaso). I am sensing a dvanda, such as "fixed-adherent-tendencies of mind'. Regards :smile:
But that is not dvanda. Dvanda can be resolved simply with "and": standpoints and adherences and underlying tendencies.

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