Nibbana

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Haymow
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Re: Nibbana

Post by Haymow »

To live free from craving, conceit and views, phenomena simply taking form, dissolving, taking form again, so on and so forth. Be still, that's all you need to do, it's so simple. And yet we pour over texts and ideas, translations and interpretations on and on and on. It's like the journey up the mountain to find salvation only to reach the summit and realize it was inside you all along, no journey was necessary. It seems like you are saying don't think about any of these things as they are ultimately frivolous, the same could be said about any activity which does not lead to living free from craving, conceit, and views. Are you comfortable saying you don't know what happens after death and that buddhism does not answer this question?

There is no craving for existence, as one way or the other does not bother me. However, buddhism for me would offer little if there is no experience after death. Not that I would be upset by it, it is what it is and I have made peace with that. But the imperative to reach nibbana would not be there, and time could be used for many other things. Especially because if there is no experience after death whether I reach nibbana or not, I won't be reborn my experience and existence will end, and what I did in life had no impact on that.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Nibbana

Post by Ceisiwr »

Haymow
To live free from craving, conceit and views, phenomena simply taking form, dissolving, taking form again, so on and so forth. Be still, that's all you need to do, it's so simple. And yet we pour over texts and ideas, translations and interpretations on and on and on. It's like the journey up the mountain to find salvation only to reach the summit and realize it was inside you all along, no journey was necessary.
Non-Arahants have to use a raft, yes.

It seems like you are saying don't think about any of these things as they are ultimately frivolous, the same could be said about any activity which does not lead to living free from craving, conceit, and views.
More to be mindful and watch how said views and opinions rise and then cease. To see them as anicca, dukkha and anatta and so let go of them.
Are you comfortable saying you don't know what happens after death and that buddhism does not answer this question?
It’s peaceful letting go of views :)

There is no craving for existence, as one way or the other does not bother me. However, buddhism for me would offer little if there is no experience after death. Not that I would be upset by it, it is what it is and I have made peace with that. But the imperative to reach nibbana would not be there, and time could be used for many other things. Especially because if there is no experience after death whether I reach nibbana or not, I won't be reborn my experience and existence will end, and what I did in life had no impact on that.
Sure sounds like you want Nibbana to be something that you exist in. If you view Nibbana like that, there won’t ever be Nibbana.
Especially because if there is no experience after death whether I reach nibbana or not, I won't be reborn my experience and existence will end, and what I did in life had no impact on that.
More speculations, views and conjectures. You are tying yourself up in knots, getting stuck in the net of views. This is all coming from craving and grasping, from “I am”.

“This is peaceful, this is sublime, that is, the stilling of all activities, the relinquishing of all acquisitions, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, nibbāna.”

“Let go a little and you will have some peace. Completely let go and you will have total peace” Ajahn Chah.

That includes views.

Metta

:)
"Analysis and synthesis are praised by the wise,
liberation in the Sāsana comes from analysis and synthesis;
the purpose of the method of analysis and synthesis is the ultimate"


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Ceisiwr
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Re: Nibbana

Post by Ceisiwr »

Malunkyaputta, did I ever say to you, 'Come, Malunkyaputta, live the holy life under me, and I will declare to you that 'The cosmos is eternal,' or 'The cosmos is not eternal,' or 'The cosmos is finite,' or 'The cosmos is infinite,' or 'The soul & the body are the same,' or 'The soul is one thing and the body another,' or 'After death a Tathagata exists,' or 'After death a Tathagata does not exist,' or 'After death a Tathagata both exists & does not exist,' or 'After death a Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist'?"

"No, lord."

...

So, Malunkyaputta, remember what is undeclared by me as undeclared, and what is declared by me as declared. And what is undeclared by me? 'The cosmos is eternal,' is undeclared by me. 'The cosmos is not eternal,' is undeclared by me. 'The cosmos is finite'... 'The cosmos is infinite'... 'The soul & the body are the same'... 'The soul is one thing and the body another'... 'After death a Tathagata exists'... 'After death a Tathagata does not exist'... 'After death a Tathagata both exists & does not exist'... 'After death a Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist,' is undeclared by me.

"And why are they undeclared by me? Because they are not connected with the goal, are not fundamental to the holy life. They do not lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, calming, direct knowledge, self-awakening, Unbinding. That's why they are undeclared by me.

"And what is declared by me? 'This is stress,' is declared by me. 'This is the origination of stress,' is declared by me. 'This is the cessation of stress,' is declared by me. 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress,' is declared by me. And why are they declared by me? Because they are connected with the goal, are fundamental to the holy life. They lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, calming, direct knowledge, self-awakening, Unbinding. That's why they are declared by me.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"Analysis and synthesis are praised by the wise,
liberation in the Sāsana comes from analysis and synthesis;
the purpose of the method of analysis and synthesis is the ultimate"


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Haymow
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Re: Nibbana

Post by Haymow »

I don't want or not want nibbana to be anything, whatever it is, it is. I don't have any attachment to buddhism, if once I die there is nothing more then buddhism is just another intellectual curiosity, nothing more than something to pass the time, no more important than folding clothes or any other activity. I don't consider myself a buddhist so I am not afraid of losing something or have preconceived notions of nibbana or reality that I need validated. I just read some of these posts that ring false to me, and would like to see if it is me that is wrong. So far it seems similar to someone questioning the christian gods existence; it doesn't matter and to dwell on such things will surely keep you out of heaven.

And really this has strayed far from the original question of existence vs non existence being wrong view. That ultimately experience either continues or it does not. To say that thinking of this question will lead to never attaining nibbana is not an answer to the question and also ignores that everyone will die and existence will continue or not regardless of attaining nibbana. Even if I have no intention of attaining nibbana the question still remains, and there is an answer and that answer will happen to every person one day.
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equilibrium
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Re: Nibbana

Post by equilibrium »

.....birth and death are one thread.....the illusion.

One can conquer the illusion of birth and death by reaching Nibbana.....that transcends.....all dualities.....

.....how can one die as one were never born.....?
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Nibbana

Post by Ceisiwr »

Haymow
I I don't consider myself a buddhist so I am not afraid of losing something or have preconceived notions of nibbana or reality that I need validated.
I suspected as much.

I just read some of these posts that ring false to me, and would like to see if it is me that is wrong. So far it seems similar to someone questioning the christian gods existence; it doesn't matter and to dwell on such things will surely keep you out of heaven.
Questioning God keeps you out of heaven because it upsets God. Thinking about Nibbana being existence or non-existence prevents Nibbana because that very thinking is the result of craving and clinging. Nibbana and craving can’t co-exist by definition.
And really this has strayed far from the original question of existence vs non existence being wrong view. That ultimately experience either continues or it does not. To say that thinking of this question will lead to never attaining nibbana is not an answer to the question and also ignores that everyone will die and existence will continue or not regardless of attaining nibbana.
The answer to the question is that it’s undeclared, because it’s not connected with understanding dukkha and cessation. Such views and questioning don’t lead to dispassion. They lead to dukkha. It’s an indulgence in it. Such questioning and views lead away from Nibbana, not towards it. Instead the arising and ceasing of the very question itself is pointed to. The question isn’t answered, it’s explained. A Buddhist won’t answer yes or not to it for the same reasons Buddha didn’t. It’s a trap of Māra.
Even if I have no intention of attaining nibbana the question still remains, and there is an answer and that answer will happen to every person one day.
The question doesn’t remain if you see the arising and ceasing of views, but as long as you don’t see that (or understand it) then you won’t see the allure and drawback in views, stand-points, opinions and conjecture. You won’t see the dukkha inherent in reasoning and view points. When you do, you wont want to know the answer because you fully understand the problem with the question. In short the question will simply no longer arise or, if it does, be pursued and adhered to.

Metta

:)
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Sun Apr 19, 2020 4:17 pm, edited 7 times in total.
"Analysis and synthesis are praised by the wise,
liberation in the Sāsana comes from analysis and synthesis;
the purpose of the method of analysis and synthesis is the ultimate"


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cappuccino
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Re: Nibbana

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Ceisiwr wrote: When you do, you won't want to know the answer because you fully understand the problem with the question.
"Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater"
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confusedlayman
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Re: Nibbana

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cappuccino wrote: Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:20 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: When you do, you won't want to know the answer because you fully understand the problem with the question.
"Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater"
Shoonya means "nothingness". There are two experiences in Yoga. One is of shoonya and the other is of jyoti, light. In the state of shoonya, the activity of consciousness, mind and ego stops, and there is only the awareness of consciousness and prana. The state of shoonya also known as nirvana, freedom from the bondage of life and mind. This freedom is the purpose of Buddhist meditation - teaching the state of nirvana where the activity of mind, intellect and emotions comes to a total standstill.- hindu version

can this be nibbana? anyone want to disucss?
dont think
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confusedlayman
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Re: Nibbana

Post by confusedlayman »

Haymow wrote: Sun Apr 19, 2020 4:32 am Are you implying that there is no objective reality? That, because all thoughts and perceptions originate from within the mind, that they are meaningless. If there is no experience once the body dies, there is no point to study and pursue buddhism so fervently, as the arahant and the man who overdosed on heroin are in the same place and ultimately neither is better off for having taken their path in life.
for non arhants, conciousness continues and relink to next existance.. for arhant copnciousness end in death and never arise.. its like being in coma and not wake up for ever. how great it is.
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SteRo
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Re: Nibbana

Post by SteRo »

Haymow wrote: Sat Apr 18, 2020 10:34 pm ... The argument boils down to does experience end after death. ...
Haymow wrote: Sun Apr 19, 2020 3:06 am Does experience continue past death or does it not, simple question, yes or no.
...
Haymow wrote: Sun Apr 19, 2020 4:32 am ... If there is no experience once the body dies, there is no point to study and pursue buddhism ...
Haymow wrote: Sun Apr 19, 2020 5:29 am ... Are you comfortable saying you don't know what happens after death and that buddhism does not answer this question?

... However, buddhism for me would offer little if there is no experience after death. ... Especially because if there is no experience after death whether I reach nibbana or not, I won't be reborn my experience and existence will end, and what I did in life had no impact on that.
Haymow wrote: Sun Apr 19, 2020 6:36 am ... if once I die there is nothing more then buddhism is just another intellectual curiosity, ...

... everyone will die and existence will continue or not regardless of attaining nibbana. Even if I have no intention of attaining nibbana the question still remains, and there is an answer and that answer will happen to every person one day.
Right mindfulness of death is applied by Dhamma followers to support Dhamma practice. You are practicing wrong mindfulness of death because you apply your doubtful speculations about death as an argument against the Dhamma. But your argument does not apply as an argument against the Dhamma since it is based on your speculation whether there is or is no further experience after death but according to Dhamma in case of an Arahant there will be no further experience since the cycle of rebirths has ended for an Arahant and further experience after death will arise only for non-Arahants. So according to Dhamma and generally spoken there will be both, no experience after death and experience after death which is why your doubtful speculations are baseless.

What you might be actually speculating about is whether there is rebirth, i.e. experience after death, in case of both, Arahants and non-Arahants, or whether there is no rebirth in case of both, Arahants and non-Arahants, because what Dhamma calls 'Arahants' might be a fiction and annihilation is what might happen regardless of what people believe and practice when being alive.
Haymow wrote: Sun Apr 19, 2020 5:29 am To live free from craving, conceit and views, phenomena simply taking form, dissolving, taking form again, so on and so forth. Be still, that's all you need to do, it's so simple.
If that is the case why do you bother at all? Let buddhist be buddhists ... why does it bother you what they believe and practice?
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ
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cappuccino
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Re: Nibbana

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confusedlayman wrote: and not wake up forever. how great it is.
you're misrepresenting a noble teaching
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Nibbana

Post by Ceisiwr »

cappuccino wrote: Sun Apr 19, 2020 3:23 pm
confusedlayman wrote: and not wake up forever. how great it is.
you're misrepresenting a noble teaching
Says the man who agrees with the Upanishads :roll:
"Analysis and synthesis are praised by the wise,
liberation in the Sāsana comes from analysis and synthesis;
the purpose of the method of analysis and synthesis is the ultimate"


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cappuccino
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Re: Nibbana

Post by cappuccino »

Ceisiwr wrote: Says the man who agrees with the Upanishads
agrees how?
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Nibbana

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Last edited by Ceisiwr on Sun Apr 19, 2020 3:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Analysis and synthesis are praised by the wise,
liberation in the Sāsana comes from analysis and synthesis;
the purpose of the method of analysis and synthesis is the ultimate"


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Ceisiwr
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Re: Nibbana

Post by Ceisiwr »

cappuccino wrote: Sun Apr 19, 2020 3:32 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Says the man who agrees with the Upanishads
agrees how?
You tell me. You are the one who said you agree with them.
"Analysis and synthesis are praised by the wise,
liberation in the Sāsana comes from analysis and synthesis;
the purpose of the method of analysis and synthesis is the ultimate"


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