Theravada school does not pass mahāpadesa test

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SDC
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Re: Theravada school does not pass mahāpadesa test

Post by SDC »

Image

:rofl:

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Theravada school does not pass mahāpadesa test

Post by Ceisiwr »

SDC wrote:
Sun Mar 01, 2020 11:12 pm
Image

:rofl:
Well memed 😄 :jumping:
“For that is false, bhikkhu, which has a deceptive nature, and that is true which has an undeceptive nature—Nibbāna. Therefore a bhikkhu possessing this truth possesses the supreme foundation of truth. For this, bhikkhu, is the supreme noble truth, namely, Nibbāna, which has an undeceptive nature.” MN 140

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SDC
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Re: Theravada school does not pass mahāpadesa test

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Ceisiwr wrote:
Sun Mar 01, 2020 11:15 pm
SDC wrote:
Sun Mar 01, 2020 11:12 pm
[...
Well memed 😄 :jumping:
I have so many people to thank... :geek:

SteRo
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Re: Theravada school does not pass mahāpadesa test

Post by SteRo »

Germann wrote:
Sun Mar 01, 2020 6:15 pm
SteRo wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 7:06 am

Is it that you think to know better than the Theravada what dhamma is about or is it a kind of psychotherapy you apply to yourself to avoid getting obsessed with the doctrine of the Theravada?
I think Theravada school is not a Buddha Teaching. This is the wrong way.
So you think to know better than the Theravada ... conventionally spoken, i.e. I don't know whether conceit is involved or not. If conceit would be involved then there would be the sentiment of 'I know better' regardless of what the Buddha taught and if conceit would not be involved there just would be reference to other teachings of the Buddha granting authenticity to those but not to other teachings claimed to be authentic by Theravada.

So what teachings do you accept as authentic teachings of the Buddha and what teachings do you reject? Personally I don't think that it is beneficial to reject any of the teachings but that it is even harmful but you might feel different about that. The point why I am asking this question is that I would not want to imagine that you reject the whole Pali canon because it is claimed to be authentic by Theravada ...
.

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Germann
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Re: Theravada school does not pass mahāpadesa test

Post by Germann »

Sam Vara wrote:
Sun Mar 01, 2020 6:36 pm
Germann wrote:
Sun Mar 01, 2020 6:09 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Sun Mar 01, 2020 7:36 am


Well, we can ignore the mahapadesa test, then, as it fails the mahapadesa test.
Tell us more about this.
Sure. If "failing the test" vitiates or undermines the suttas, then it vitiates or undermines AN 4.180. So it's a vitiated or undermined test, which cannot yield conclusive results. If "failing the test" does not vitiate or undermines all the suttas, then there is no problem.
If the test itself is incorrect, then its infidelity shows the unreliability of the Sutta: the Sutta teaches the wrong test.
If the test is correct, then the Theravada school does not possess the good Dhamma, having only the texts of the Suttas.

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Re: Theravada school does not pass mahāpadesa test

Post by Germann »

SteRo wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 4:42 am

So what teachings do you accept as authentic teachings of the Buddha and what teachings do you reject? Personally I don't think that it is beneficial to reject any of the teachings but that it is even harmful but you might feel different about that. The point why I am asking this question is that I would not want to imagine that you reject the whole Pali canon because it is claimed to be authentic by Theravada ...
.
The ideas of ancient texts cannot be understood without commentaries, and the tradition of commentaries constitutes a school. The Theravada school is wrong, the Mahayana is right. Texts without a tradition of comments that transmit correct interpretations from generation to generation are useless: they can be interpreted as you like.

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Germann
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Re: Theravada school does not pass mahāpadesa test

Post by Germann »

Ceisiwr wrote:
Sun Mar 01, 2020 6:29 pm
Germann wrote:
Sun Mar 01, 2020 6:15 pm
SteRo wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 7:06 am

Is it that you think to know better than the Theravada what dhamma is about or is it a kind of psychotherapy you apply to yourself to avoid getting obsessed with the doctrine of the Theravada?
I think Theravada school is not a Buddha Teaching. This is the wrong way.

What is the right way?
Mahayana.

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Theravada school does not pass mahāpadesa test

Post by Ceisiwr »

Germann wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 4:45 pm
SteRo wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 4:42 am

So what teachings do you accept as authentic teachings of the Buddha and what teachings do you reject? Personally I don't think that it is beneficial to reject any of the teachings but that it is even harmful but you might feel different about that. The point why I am asking this question is that I would not want to imagine that you reject the whole Pali canon because it is claimed to be authentic by Theravada ...
.
The ideas of ancient texts cannot be understood without commentaries, and the tradition of commentaries constitutes a school. The Theravada school is wrong, the Mahayana is right. Texts without a tradition of comments that transmit correct interpretations from generation to generation are useless: they can be interpreted as you like.

Whilst some Mahāyāna thought does have some valid input they all can’t seem to get past their own concepts. Anything of worth in Mahāyāna is readily available in the Pali suttas. Mahāyāna seems to be a mass of unnecessary conceptual proliferations.
“For that is false, bhikkhu, which has a deceptive nature, and that is true which has an undeceptive nature—Nibbāna. Therefore a bhikkhu possessing this truth possesses the supreme foundation of truth. For this, bhikkhu, is the supreme noble truth, namely, Nibbāna, which has an undeceptive nature.” MN 140

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Germann
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Re: Theravada school does not pass mahāpadesa test

Post by Germann »

santa100 wrote:
Sun Mar 01, 2020 11:01 pm
Germann wrote:The order of bhikkhunīs: the duration of the teaching...Numerical Discourses of the Buddha: A Translation of the Anguttara Nikaya." 2012 - p. 1192
Not sure if you've intentionally or unintentionally skip the last and most important paragraph in that same sutta you quoted:
AN 8.51 wrote:Just as, Ānanda, a man might build a dyke around a large reservoir as a precaution so that the water would not overflow, so too, as a precaution I have prescribed for bhikkhunīs the eight principles of respect as things not to be transgressed as long as life lasts.”
And Ven. Bodhi's note citing Comy's explanation:
Mp (Ce): “By this he shows the following: ‘When a causeway is not built around a large reservoir, whatever water would have remained there if the causeway had first been built does not remain because there is no causeway. So too, these principles of respect have been prescribed in advance, before an incident has arisen, for the purpose of preventing transgression. If they had not been prescribed, then, because women have gone forth, the good Dhamma would have lasted five hundred years. But because they have been laid down in advance, it will continue another five hundred years and thus last for the thousand years originally stated.’ And this expression ‘a thousand years’ is said with reference to arahants who have attained the analytic knowledges (paṭisambhidāpabhedappattakhīṇāsavānaṃ vasen’eva vuttaṃ). Following this, for another thousand years, there appear dry-insight arahants; for another thousand years, non-returners; for another thousand years, once-returners; and for another thousand years, stream-enterers. Thus the good Dhamma of penetration (paṭivedhasaddhammo) will last five thousand years. The Dhamma of learning (pariyattidhammo) will also last this long. For without learning, there is no penetration, and as long as there is learning, there is penetration.” From the above, we can see that according to the commentary, the allowance for women to go forth will not shorten the life span of the Dhamma; this is because the Buddha laid down the eight principles of respect, which serve as the dyke or causeway.
So, no, there's no problem with the Theravada school, nor any problem with Mahayana if they follow the Agamas, which is the Nikayas equivalent. So I'd be very careful before making statements like below, for it only presents solid evidences about the shallow understanding and deep ignorance of the person:
Germann wrote:I think Theravada school is not a Buddha Teaching. This is the wrong way.
"For it is individual opinion that is certainly weakest of all; the view of the teachers is firmer, but is also should fit with the principles of Sutta; when it fits and agrees with this it should be accepted, otherwise it should not; the principles of Sutta are firmer than the view of the teachers." (Samantapasadika Atthakatha I: 231)

If we choose between 5000, 2500, 1000 years, etc - and 500 years, we must choose 500 years, as stated in the Sutta.
The thesis that the good Dhamma will exist up to 1000 years, will exist up to 2500 years, will exist up to 5000 years, etc, is absent in Sutta.

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Germann
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Re: Theravada school does not pass mahāpadesa test

Post by Germann »

Ceisiwr wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 4:54 pm
Germann wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 4:45 pm
SteRo wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 4:42 am

So what teachings do you accept as authentic teachings of the Buddha and what teachings do you reject? Personally I don't think that it is beneficial to reject any of the teachings but that it is even harmful but you might feel different about that. The point why I am asking this question is that I would not want to imagine that you reject the whole Pali canon because it is claimed to be authentic by Theravada ...
.
The ideas of ancient texts cannot be understood without commentaries, and the tradition of commentaries constitutes a school. The Theravada school is wrong, the Mahayana is right. Texts without a tradition of comments that transmit correct interpretations from generation to generation are useless: they can be interpreted as you like.

Whilst some Mahāyāna thought does have some valid input they all can’t seem to get past their own concepts. Anything of worth in Mahāyāna is readily available in the Pali suttas. Mahāyāna seems to be a mass of unnecessary conceptual proliferations.
The duration of the good Dhamma in the Mahayana (not in the Shravak schools) is not limited to 500 years.

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SDC
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Re: Theravada school does not pass mahāpadesa test

Post by SDC »

Germann wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 4:45 pm
SteRo wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 4:42 am

So what teachings do you accept as authentic teachings of the Buddha and what teachings do you reject? Personally I don't think that it is beneficial to reject any of the teachings but that it is even harmful but you might feel different about that. The point why I am asking this question is that I would not want to imagine that you reject the whole Pali canon because it is claimed to be authentic by Theravada ...
.
The ideas of ancient texts cannot be understood without commentaries, and the tradition of commentaries constitutes a school. The Theravada school is wrong, the Mahayana is right. Texts without a tradition of comments that transmit correct interpretations from generation to generation are useless: they can be interpreted as you like.
Hi Germann,

Do you need clarification about what this rule in the ToS means?
i. Proselytizing or evangelizing other spiritual paths
It's great that you are attempting to be the Pied Piper, but if you are unable to do so without trying to convert people and vilify Theravada in the process, you are violating the ToS. It is clear that you think Mahayana is superior, but it is the member's decision to be here and to follow Theravada. You cannot disregard the theme of the forum at your leisure.

Consider this your final warning as you have been here long enough to know.

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Sam Vara
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Re: Theravada school does not pass mahāpadesa test

Post by Sam Vara »

Germann wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 4:40 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Sun Mar 01, 2020 6:36 pm
Germann wrote:
Sun Mar 01, 2020 6:09 pm

Tell us more about this.
Sure. If "failing the test" vitiates or undermines the suttas, then it vitiates or undermines AN 4.180. So it's a vitiated or undermined test, which cannot yield conclusive results. If "failing the test" does not vitiate or undermines all the suttas, then there is no problem.
If the test itself is incorrect, then its infidelity shows the unreliability of the Sutta: the Sutta teaches the wrong test.
If the test is correct, then the Theravada school does not possess the good Dhamma, having only the texts of the Suttas.
A test is not a premise or a statement, so cannot be correct or incorrect. To think so would be a category error.

A test can however be validly or invalidly applied. In this case, you seem to be invalidly attempting to apply it. In this thread, you are invalidly applying the "Mahapadesa test", in that AN 4.180 refers to reports from four kinds of mendicants: those claiming to heave heard in the Buddha's presence, those claiming to have heard in the presence of the Sangha, those claiming to have heard in the presence of learned knowledgeable elders, and those claiming to have heard in the presence of one such knowledgeable elder. None of these are the case.

Dan74
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Re: Theravada school does not pass mahāpadesa test

Post by Dan74 »

If one is so inclined, one can find inconsistencies and contradictions in every tradition. Mahayana sutras contradict one another plenty. And there are also suttas/sutras in each that are frankly absurd.

But for a practically-minded practitioner, what is important is not absolute internal consistencies of every scripture with every other, but that there is a living breathing wisdom tradition that leads to the relinquishing of greed, anger and ignorance.
_/|\_

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pilgrim
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Re: Theravada school does not pass mahāpadesa test

Post by pilgrim »

The prophecy may be correct. Mahayana schools started around 500 years after Parinibbana. The once pure teachings became tainted at that point in time. :stirthepot:

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cappuccino
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Re: Theravada school does not pass mahāpadesa test

Post by cappuccino »

pilgrim wrote: Mahayana schools started around 500 years after Parinibbana. The once pure teachings became tainted at that point in time.
seems to (still) be pure, as far as I can tell

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