Theravada school does not pass mahāpadesa test

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Germann
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Theravada school does not pass mahāpadesa test

Post by Germann »

The Good Dhamma (Saddhamma) lasted, according to the Pali canon, only 500 years. This is stated both in Sutta (AN 8.51) and in Vinaya (Cullavagga 10.1). The Commentary estimates the life of the good Dhamma not at 500, but at 5000 years. But the Comment, in case of discrepancies - it is obvious that 5000 and 500 are different numbers - gives priority to the Sutta (Samantapasadika Atthakatha 1.231) So, the Good Dhamma (Saddhamma) lasted only 500 years. The distorted Dhamma, having appeared back in the days of Sakyamuni (SN 16.13), supplanted Saddhamma, until the good Dhamma disappeared after 500 years.

Theravada school does not pass mahāpadesa test (AN 4.180), conflicting with Sutta and Vinaya (AN 8.51 and Cullavagga 10.1).

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Theravada school does not pass mahāpadesa test

Post by Ceisiwr »

The title should be “no Buddhist school passes mahāpadesa test”


If the Dhamma hasn’t lasted 500 years then how do we trust that prophecy? 🧐
“For that is false, bhikkhu, which has a deceptive nature, and that is true which has an undeceptive nature—Nibbāna. Therefore a bhikkhu possessing this truth possesses the supreme foundation of truth. For this, bhikkhu, is the supreme noble truth, namely, Nibbāna, which has an undeceptive nature.” MN 140

SteRo
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Re: Theravada school does not pass mahāpadesa test

Post by SteRo »

Germann wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 4:44 am
The Good Dhamma (Saddhamma) lasted, according to the Pali canon, only 500 years. This is stated both in Sutta (AN 8.51) and in Vinaya (Cullavagga 10.1). The Commentary estimates the life of the good Dhamma not at 500, but at 5000 years. But the Comment, in case of discrepancies - it is obvious that 5000 and 500 are different numbers - gives priority to the Sutta (Samantapasadika Atthakatha 1.231) So, the Good Dhamma (Saddhamma) lasted only 500 years. The distorted Dhamma, having appeared back in the days of Sakyamuni (SN 16.13), supplanted Saddhamma, until the good Dhamma disappeared after 500 years.

Theravada school does not pass mahāpadesa test (AN 4.180), conflicting with Sutta and Vinaya (AN 8.51 and Cullavagga 10.1).
Is it that you think to know better than the Theravada what dhamma is about or is it a kind of psychotherapy you apply to yourself to avoid getting obsessed with the doctrine of the Theravada?

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Germann
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Theravada school does not pass mahāpadesa test

Post by Germann »

"However, Ananda, because women have gone forth from the household life into homelessness in the Dhamma and discipline proclaimed by the Tathagata, now the spiritual life will not be of long durations; the good Dhamma will last only five hundred years" (AN 8:51) Bhikkhu Bodhi "The Numerical Discourses of the Buddha: A Translation of the Anguttara Nikaya." 2012 - p. 1192.

"But since, Ananda, women have now received that permission, the pure religion, Ananda, will not now last so long, the good law will now stand fast for only five hundred years. Just, Ananda, as houses in which there are many women x and but few men are easily violated by robber burglars; just so, Ananda, under whatever doctrine and discipline women are allowed to go out from the household life into the homeless state, that religion will not last long. And just, Ananda, as when the disease called mildew falls upon a field of rice in fine condition, that field of rice does not continue long ; just so, Ananda, under whatsoever doctrine and discipline women are allowed to go forth from the household life into the homeless state, that religion will not last long. And just, Ananda, as when the disease called blight falls upon a field of sugar-cane in good condition, that field of sugarcane does not continue long ; just so, Ananda, under whatsoever doctrine and discipline women are allowed to go forth from the household life into the homeless state, that religion does not last long. And just, Ananda, as a man would in anticipation build an embankment to a great reservoir, beyond which the water should not overpass; just even so, Ananda, have I in anticipation laid down these Eight Chief Rules for the Bhikkhunis, their life long not to be overpassed.' - Vinaya Texts, tr T. W. Rhys Davids & Hermann Oldenberg, Sacred Books of the East, volumes XIII, XVII & XX, Clarendon/Oxford, 1881-5; reprinted Motilal Banarsidass, Delhi / Vol. XX, Kullavagga IV-XII - p. 325-326. (10.1: 6)

("The order of bhikkhunīs: the duration of the teaching
The passages surveyed so far help to set into context the prophecy that because an order of bhikkhunīs had come into existence during the lifetime of the Buddha, the duration of the teachings will be shortened to 500 years (Cv X.1). Now this prophecy is surprising, since once would not expect the Buddha to do something which he knew in advance would have such an effect. In fact, the prophecy in the way it is recorded in the Vinaya has not come true, as after 2,500 years the teaching is still in existence. Even the bhikkhunī order was still in existence in India in the 8th century and thus more than a 1,000 years after the time of the Buddha." - Bhikkhu Anālayo)

"Without approving or rejecting it, you should thoroughly learn those words and phrases and then check for them in the discourses and seek them in the discipline. If, when you check for them in the discourses and seek them in the discipline, [you find that] they are not included among the discourses and are not to be seen in the discipline, you should draw the conclusion: 'Surely, this is not the word of the Blessed One, the Arahant, the Perfectly Enlightened One. It has been badly learned by this bhikkhu.' Thus you should discard it." (AN 4: 180) Bhikkhu Bodhi "The Numerical Discourses of the Buddha: A Translation of the Anguttara Nikaya." 2012 - p. 545.

"'The view of the teachers' (acariyavada) refers to the series of expositions of meaning (atthakatha) constituted by the judgements passed down separately from the canonical text and established by the 500 arahats who were compilers of the Teaching. 'Individual opinion' refers to exposition in a form established by one's own inference, reasoning and good understanding separate from Sutta, the principles of Sutta, and the tradition of teachers. The entire [body of] opinion of elders (sabbo theravado) that has come down in the commentaries to the Suttanta, Abhidhamma and Vinaya is also called 'individual opinion'. But in adopting an individual opinion one should explain it without holding to it stubbornly and come to a conclusion; the evidence should be explained by considering the meaning of the canonical text and applying the meaning to the canonical text; individual opinion should fit with the view of the teachers; if it fits and agrees with this, it should be accepted; but if it does not fit and agree, it should not be accepted. For it is individual opinion that is certainly weakest of all; the view of the teachers is firmer, but is also should fit with the principles of Sutta; when it fits and agrees with this it should be accepted, otherwise it should not; the principles of Sutta are firmer than the view of the teachers." (Samantapasadika Atthakatha I: 231) Rupert Gethin, "Was Buddhaghosa a Theravadin? Buddhist Identity in the Pali Commentaries and Chronicles" // How Theravada is Theravada? Exploring Buddhist Identities. 2012 - p. 8.

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JamesTheGiant
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Re: Theravada school does not pass mahāpadesa test

Post by JamesTheGiant »

Germann wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 4:44 am
.

Theravada school does not pass mahāpadesa test (AN 4.180), conflicting with Sutta and Vinaya (AN 8.51 and Cullavagga 10.1).
Shall we all become Christian or Muslim then? What school can we follow?
Create a new school from the most likely Early Buddhist Texts?
Or just abandon all hope and wait for the next Buddha to come in a few million years?

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Sam Vara
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Re: Theravada school does not pass mahāpadesa test

Post by Sam Vara »

Germann wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 4:44 am

Theravada school does not pass mahāpadesa test (AN 4.180), conflicting with Sutta and Vinaya (AN 8.51 and Cullavagga 10.1).
Well, we can ignore the mahapadesa test, then, as it fails the mahapadesa test.

sentinel
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Re: Theravada school does not pass mahāpadesa test

Post by sentinel »

Therefore the dhamma remains are partial dhamma .
Quality is not an act, it is a habit.

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Germann
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Re: Theravada school does not pass mahāpadesa test

Post by Germann »

JamesTheGiant wrote:
Sun Mar 01, 2020 7:01 am
Germann wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 4:44 am
.

Theravada school does not pass mahāpadesa test (AN 4.180), conflicting with Sutta and Vinaya (AN 8.51 and Cullavagga 10.1).
Shall we all become Christian or Muslim then? What school can we follow?
Create a new school from the most likely Early Buddhist Texts?
Or just abandon all hope and wait for the next Buddha to come in a few million years?
There are no such problems in Mahayana Buddhism.

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Germann
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Re: Theravada school does not pass mahāpadesa test

Post by Germann »

Sam Vara wrote:
Sun Mar 01, 2020 7:36 am
Germann wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 4:44 am

Theravada school does not pass mahāpadesa test (AN 4.180), conflicting with Sutta and Vinaya (AN 8.51 and Cullavagga 10.1).
Well, we can ignore the mahapadesa test, then, as it fails the mahapadesa test.
Tell us more about this.

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Germann
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Re: Theravada school does not pass mahāpadesa test

Post by Germann »

sentinel wrote:
Sun Mar 01, 2020 9:11 am
Therefore the dhamma remains are partial dhamma .
Since this is not Saddhamma, the fruits of Arya are inaccessible.

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Germann
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Re: Theravada school does not pass mahāpadesa test

Post by Germann »

Ceisiwr wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 6:23 am
The title should be “no Buddhist school passes mahāpadesa test”


If the Dhamma hasn’t lasted 500 years then how do we trust that prophecy? 🧐
Dhamma is not the same as a book. The text may be preserved, but when the correct understanding of the key terms of practice is lost, the Dhamma is also lost.

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Germann
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Re: Theravada school does not pass mahāpadesa test

Post by Germann »

SteRo wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 7:06 am

Is it that you think to know better than the Theravada what dhamma is about or is it a kind of psychotherapy you apply to yourself to avoid getting obsessed with the doctrine of the Theravada?
I think Theravada school is not a Buddha Teaching. This is the wrong way.

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Theravada school does not pass mahāpadesa test

Post by Ceisiwr »

Germann wrote:
Sun Mar 01, 2020 6:15 pm
SteRo wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 7:06 am

Is it that you think to know better than the Theravada what dhamma is about or is it a kind of psychotherapy you apply to yourself to avoid getting obsessed with the doctrine of the Theravada?
I think Theravada school is not a Buddha Teaching. This is the wrong way.

What is the right way?
“For that is false, bhikkhu, which has a deceptive nature, and that is true which has an undeceptive nature—Nibbāna. Therefore a bhikkhu possessing this truth possesses the supreme foundation of truth. For this, bhikkhu, is the supreme noble truth, namely, Nibbāna, which has an undeceptive nature.” MN 140

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Sam Vara
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Re: Theravada school does not pass mahāpadesa test

Post by Sam Vara »

Germann wrote:
Sun Mar 01, 2020 6:09 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Sun Mar 01, 2020 7:36 am
Germann wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 4:44 am

Theravada school does not pass mahāpadesa test (AN 4.180), conflicting with Sutta and Vinaya (AN 8.51 and Cullavagga 10.1).
Well, we can ignore the mahapadesa test, then, as it fails the mahapadesa test.
Tell us more about this.
Sure. If "failing the test" vitiates or undermines the suttas, then it vitiates or undermines AN 4.180. So it's a vitiated or undermined test, which cannot yield conclusive results. If "failing the test" does not vitiate or undermines all the suttas, then there is no problem.

santa100
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Re: Theravada school does not pass mahāpadesa test

Post by santa100 »

Germann wrote:The order of bhikkhunīs: the duration of the teaching...Numerical Discourses of the Buddha: A Translation of the Anguttara Nikaya." 2012 - p. 1192
Not sure if you've intentionally or unintentionally skip the last and most important paragraph in that same sutta you quoted:
AN 8.51 wrote:Just as, Ānanda, a man might build a dyke around a large reservoir as a precaution so that the water would not overflow, so too, as a precaution I have prescribed for bhikkhunīs the eight principles of respect as things not to be transgressed as long as life lasts.”
And Ven. Bodhi's note citing Comy's explanation:
Mp (Ce): “By this he shows the following: ‘When a causeway is not built around a large reservoir, whatever water would have remained there if the causeway had first been built does not remain because there is no causeway. So too, these principles of respect have been prescribed in advance, before an incident has arisen, for the purpose of preventing transgression. If they had not been prescribed, then, because women have gone forth, the good Dhamma would have lasted five hundred years. But because they have been laid down in advance, it will continue another five hundred years and thus last for the thousand years originally stated.’ And this expression ‘a thousand years’ is said with reference to arahants who have attained the analytic knowledges (paṭisambhidāpabhedappattakhīṇāsavānaṃ vasen’eva vuttaṃ). Following this, for another thousand years, there appear dry-insight arahants; for another thousand years, non-returners; for another thousand years, once-returners; and for another thousand years, stream-enterers. Thus the good Dhamma of penetration (paṭivedhasaddhammo) will last five thousand years. The Dhamma of learning (pariyattidhammo) will also last this long. For without learning, there is no penetration, and as long as there is learning, there is penetration.” From the above, we can see that according to the commentary, the allowance for women to go forth will not shorten the life span of the Dhamma; this is because the Buddha laid down the eight principles of respect, which serve as the dyke or causeway.
So, no, there's no problem with the Theravada school, nor any problem with Mahayana if they follow the Agamas, which is the Nikayas equivalent. So I'd be very careful before making statements like below, for it only presents solid evidences about the shallow understanding and deep ignorance of the person:
Germann wrote:I think Theravada school is not a Buddha Teaching. This is the wrong way.

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