Did the Buddha die?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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cappuccino
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Re: Did the Buddha die?

Post by cappuccino »

Dinsdale wrote: but does that imply annihilation?
Do you know of any suttas which clarify this question?
If I — being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is no self — were to answer that there is no self, that would be conforming with those brahmans & contemplatives who are exponents of annihilationism [the view that death is the annihilation of consciousness].
Ananda Sutta: To Ananda
(On Self, No Self, and Not-self)
Spiny Norman
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Re: Did the Buddha die?

Post by Spiny Norman »

cappuccino wrote: Sat Feb 15, 2020 6:04 pm
Dinsdale wrote: but does that imply annihilation?
Do you know of any suttas which clarify this question?
If I — being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is no self — were to answer that there is no self, that would be conforming with those brahmans & contemplatives who are exponents of annihilationism [the view that death is the annihilation of consciousness].
Ananda Sutta: To Ananda
(On Self, No Self, and Not-self)
Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a consensus on what that sutta means.
Any other suggestions?
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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cappuccino
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Re: Did the Buddha die?

Post by cappuccino »

"Well then, friend Sariputta, does the Tathagata not exist after death?"

"Friend, that too has not been declared by the Blessed One: 'The Tathagata does not exist after death.'"
Sariputta-Kotthita Sutta
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cappuccino
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Re: Did the Buddha die?

Post by cappuccino »

"Yes, friends. As I understand the Teaching explained by the Blessed One, a monk with no more effluents, on the break-up of the body, is annihilated, perishes, & does not exist after death."

"Don't say that, friend Yamaka. Don't misrepresent the Blessed One. It's not good to misrepresent the Blessed One, for the Blessed One would not say, 'A monk with no more effluents, on the break-up of the body, is annihilated, perishes, & does not exist after death.'"
Yamaka Sutta
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equilibrium
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Re: Did the Buddha die?

Post by equilibrium »

.....Birth and death are merely illusions!

AN 10.81:
"Just as a red, blue, or white lotus born in the water and growing in the water, rises up above the water and stands with no water adhering to it, in the same way the Tathagata — freed, dissociated, & released from these ten things — dwells with unrestricted awareness."
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cappuccino
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Re: Did the Buddha die?

Post by cappuccino »

equilibrium wrote: Birth and death are merely illusions!
such an illusion would be unwelcome
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Re: Did the Buddha die?

Post by Spiny Norman »

Honestly, I have no idea. And I suspect nobody else here does either.
It's all assumptions, beliefs, disbeliefs, opinions. Dressing them up with sutta quotes doesn't change anything.
So there. :tongue:
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cappuccino
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Re: Did the Buddha die?

Post by cappuccino »

Dinsdale wrote: Honestly, I have no idea. And I suspect nobody else here does either.
Buddha knew
thepea
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Re: Did the Buddha die?

Post by thepea »

Buddha is permanent. But yes he died.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Did the Buddha die?

Post by Ceisiwr »

thepea wrote: Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:01 pm Buddha is permanent. But yes he died.
How did you reach that conclusion?
"Analysis and synthesis are praised by the wise,
liberation in the Sāsana comes from analysis and synthesis;
the purpose of the method of analysis and synthesis is the ultimate"


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DooDoot
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Re: Did the Buddha die?

Post by DooDoot »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:19 pm How did you reach that conclusion?
SN 22.87
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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sentinel
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Re: Did the Buddha die?

Post by sentinel »

The Buddha equivalent to the five aggregate = no

The five aggregate disintegrated = yes

Did the Buddha die = no

:mrgreen:
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thepea
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Re: Did the Buddha die?

Post by thepea »

DooDoot wrote: Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:28 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:19 pm How did you reach that conclusion?
SN 22.87
DD gets it.
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Re: Did the Buddha die?

Post by Ceisiwr »

thepea wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2020 2:07 am
DooDoot wrote: Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:28 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:19 pm How did you reach that conclusion?
SN 22.87
DD gets it.
Try explaining it yourself?
"Analysis and synthesis are praised by the wise,
liberation in the Sāsana comes from analysis and synthesis;
the purpose of the method of analysis and synthesis is the ultimate"


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Re: Did the Buddha die?

Post by DooDoot »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2020 2:11 am Try explaining it yourself?
It needs no further explanation. To explain it further would be to dishonor the Buddha. In the suttas, it appears those "hearers" of the True Dhamma demonstrate comprehension via Noble Silence. Kind regards :meditate:

This said, your ex-master Buddhadasa explained it for "strugglers":
The first example is the word "Buddha". As you know, the word "Buddha" in everyday language refers to the historical Enlightened Being, Gotama Buddha. It refers to a physical man of flesh and bone who was born in India over two thousand years ago, died, and was cremated. This is the meaning of the word "Buddha" in everyday language.

Considered in terms of Dhamma language, however, the word "Buddha" refers to the Truth which the historical Buddha realized and taught, namely the Dhamma itself. The Buddha said:

  • One who sees the Dhmnma sees the Tathagata. One who sees the Tathagata sees the Dhamma. One who sees not the Dhamma, though grasping at the robe of the Tathagata, cannot be said to have seen the Tathagata.

Now, the Dhamma is something intangible. It is not something physical, certainly not flesh and bones. Yet the Buddha said it is one and the same as the Enlightened One. "One who sees the Dhamma sees the Tathagata." Anyone who fails to see the Dhamma cannot be said to have seen the Enlightened One. So in Dhamma language, the Buddha is one and the same as that Truth by virtue of which he became the Buddha, and anyone who sees that Truth can be said to have seen the true Buddha. To see just his physical body would not be to see the Buddha at all and would bring no real benefit.

During the Buddha's lifetime, the majority of people were unfavorably disposed towards him. Some abused him and even did him physical harm. They didn't understand him because what they saw was only his physical body, the outer shell, the Buddha of everyday language. The real Buddha, the Buddha of Dhamma language, is the Truth in his mind, knowing which the man became "Buddha". When he said, "Whoever sees the Truth sees me. Whoever sees me sees the Truth," he was speaking Dhamma language.

Again, the Buddha said, "The Dhamma and the Vinaya (Discipline), which I have proclaimed and have demonstrated, these shall be your teacher when I have passed away." Thus the real Buddha has not passed away, has not ceased to exist :ugeek: . What ceased to exist was just the physical body, the outer shell. The real Teacher, that is, the Dhamma-Vinaya, is still with us. This is the meaning of the word "Buddha" in Dhamma language. The "Buddha" of everyday language is the physical man; the "Buddha" of Dhamma language is the Dhamma itself, which made him Buddha.

https://www.dhammatalks.net/Books5/Bhik ... nguage.htm
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
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