Did the Buddha die?

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dhammapal
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Did the Buddha die?

Post by dhammapal »

[EDIT: I deeply apologize for any distress caused by the title of this thread, I don't know how to edit it. Here is a deeply moving account of the Buddha's human experience of death: How the Buddha died by Venerable Dr Mettanando Bhikkhu. Dr Mettanando Bhikkhu was a physician before entering the monkhood.]

Did the Buddha die or did he just attain parinibbāna or the deathless?

“Appammattā ne miyyanti. Ye pamattā yathā matā.

The heedful do not die. The heedless, as if already dead.”


It seems pretty clear from his teachings that he didn't die and then get reborn into Nibbāna.

I know there's no definitive answer as to whether an arahant exists after death, but still I think it's important to know where this practice is going.

Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?’ Or else he is inwardly perplexed about the immediate present: ‘Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?’

“As he attends inappropriately in this way, one of six kinds of view arises in him: The view I have a self arises in him as true & established, or the view I have no self … or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive self … or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive not-self … or the view It is precisely by means of not-self that I perceive self arises in him as true & established, or else he has a view like this: This very self of mine — the knower that is sensitive here & there to the ripening of good & bad actions — is the self of mine that is constant, everlasting, eternal, not subject to change, and will endure as long as eternity. This is called a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a writhing of views, a fetter of views. Bound by a fetter of views, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is not freed from birth, aging, & death, from sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. He is not freed, I tell you, from suffering & stress. ~ the Buddha, Majjhima Nikaya 2
Last edited by dhammapal on Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:41 am, edited 4 times in total.
chownah
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Re: Did the Buddha die?

Post by chownah »

Death there is but no one who dies.
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Re: Did the Buddha die?

Post by Polar Bear »

We can say for certain that the Buddha’s body succumbed to medical death.

:anjali:
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
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Re: Did the Buddha die?

Post by DooDoot »

Enlightened people do not "die" ("marana"). Instead, they end or finish their time ("kālaṅkata"). Its all about language.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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dhammapal
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Re: Did the Buddha die?

Post by dhammapal »

Polar Bear wrote: Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:14 am We can say for certain that the Buddha’s body succumbed to medical death.
Yes, here is a deeply moving account of the Buddha's human experience of death:
How the Buddha died by Venerable Dr Mettanando Bhikkhu, Bangkok Post, May 15, 2001. Dr Mettanando Bhikkhu was a physician before entering the monkhood.

I deeply apologize for any distress caused by the title of this thread.
pegembara
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Re: Did the Buddha die?

Post by pegembara »

Here is an account of the experience of "death" from one who is freed from "birth and death"
"Just as an oil lamp burns in dependence on oil & wick; and from the termination of the oil & wick — and from not being provided any other sustenance — it goes out unnourished; in the same way, when sensing a feeling limited to the body, he discerns that 'I am sensing a feeling limited to the body.' When sensing a feeling limited to life, he discerns that 'I am sensing a feeling limited to life.' He discerns that 'With the break-up of the body, after the termination of life, all that is sensed, not being relished, will grow cold right here.'"

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"But whoever develops mindfulness of death, thinking, 'O, that I might live for the interval that it takes to swallow having chewed up one morsel of food... for the interval that it takes to breathe out after breathing in, or to breathe in after breathing out, that I might attend to the Blessed One's instructions. I would have accomplished a great deal' — they are said to dwell heedfully. They develop mindfulness of death acutely for the sake of ending the effluents.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Last edited by pegembara on Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Did the Buddha die?

Post by Ceisiwr »

dhammapal wrote: Fri Feb 14, 2020 4:07 am [EDIT: I deeply apologize for any distress caused by the title of this thread, I don't know how to edit it. Here is a deeply moving account of the Buddha's human experience of death: How the Buddha died by Venerable Dr Mettanando Bhikkhu. Dr Mettanando Bhikkhu was a physician before entering the monkhood.]

Did the Buddha die or did he just attain parinibbāna or the deathless?

“Appammattā ne miyyanti. Ye pamattā yathā matā.

The heedful do not die. The heedless, as if already dead.”


It seems pretty clear from his teachings that he didn't die and then get reborn into Nibbāna.

I know there's no definitive answer as to whether an arahant exists after death, but still I think it's important to know where this practice is going.

Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?’ Or else he is inwardly perplexed about the immediate present: ‘Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?’

“As he attends inappropriately in this way, one of six kinds of view arises in him: The view I have a self arises in him as true & established, or the view I have no self … or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive self … or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive not-self … or the view It is precisely by means of not-self that I perceive self arises in him as true & established, or else he has a view like this: This very self of mine — the knower that is sensitive here & there to the ripening of good & bad actions — is the self of mine that is constant, everlasting, eternal, not subject to change, and will endure as long as eternity. This is called a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a writhing of views, a fetter of views. Bound by a fetter of views, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is not freed from birth, aging, & death, from sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. He is not freed, I tell you, from suffering & stress. ~ the Buddha, Majjhima Nikaya 2

There was the deathless. The aggregates ceased but the aggregates are not-self.
"Analysis and synthesis are praised by the wise,
liberation in the Sāsana comes from analysis and synthesis;
the purpose of the method of analysis and synthesis is the ultimate"


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DooDoot
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Re: Did the Buddha die?

Post by DooDoot »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:22 am The aggregates ceased but the aggregates are not-self.
How is the above related to the "deathless"? What you posted I don't comprehend. Thanks :shrug:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
chownah
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Re: Did the Buddha die?

Post by chownah »

From accesstoinsite:
44. Avyakata-samyutta — Undeclared
See Thanissaro Bhikkhu's Introduction to this samyutta.

SN 44.1: Khema Sutta — With Khema {S iv 374; CDB ii 1380} [Thanissaro]. Ven. Sister Khema explains to King Pasenadi why questions about the fate of the Tathagata after death are unanswerable.
SN 44.2: Anuradha Sutta — To Anuradha {S iv 381; CDB ii 1383} [Thanissaro]. Ven. Anuradha learns that if one can't even locate the Tathagata in the present life, how can one ever hope to answer questions about his fate after death?
SN 44.3: Sariputta-Kotthita Sutta — Sariputta and Kotthita (1) {S iv 384; CDB ii 1383} [Thanissaro]. The Buddha takes no position on questions about the fate of the Tathagata after death because each question is bound up in the five khandhas.
SN 44.4: Sariputta-Kotthita Sutta — Sariputta and Kotthita (2) {S iv 386; CDB ii 1384} [Thanissaro]. Questions regarding the fate of the Tathagata do not arise in those who see the aggregates as they actually are.
SN 44.5: Sariputta-Kotthita Sutta — Sariputta and Kotthita (3) {S iv 387; CDB ii 1385} [Thanissaro]. Questions regarding the fate of the Tathagata do not arise in those who have abandoned passion for the aggregates.
SN 44.6: Sariputta-Kotthita Sutta — Sariputta and Kotthita (4) {S iv 388; CDB ii 1386} [Thanissaro]. Questions regarding the fate of the Tathagata do not arise in those who no longer take delight in the aggregates, in clinging, in becoming, or in craving.
SN 44.7: Moggallana Sutta — With Moggallana {S iv 391; CDB ii 1388} [Thanissaro]. The Buddha takes no position on the ten speculative views because he does not identify any of the six senses as "self."
SN 44.8: Vacchagotta Sutta — With Vacchagotta {S iv 395; CDB ii 1390} [Thanissaro]. The Buddha takes no position on the ten speculative views because he does not identify any of the five aggregates as "self."
SN 44.9: Kutuhalasala Sutta — With Vacchagotta {S iv 398; CDB ii 1392} [Thanissaro]. The Buddha uses the image of a fire to explain what carries a being over into its next rebirth.
SN 44.10: Ananda Sutta — To Ananda {S iv 400; CDB ii 1393} [Thanissaro]. Why the Buddha did not take a position on the question of whether or not there is a self.
SN 44.11: Sabhiya Sutta — With Sabhiya {S iv 401; CDB ii 1394} [Thanissaro]. The fate of the Tathagata after death cannot be described because the causes for any worldly description of his fate would have totally ceased.
(44.1)https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
(.2)https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
(.3)https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
(.4)https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
(.5)https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
(.6)https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
(.7)https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
(.8)https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
(.9)https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
(.10)https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
(.11)https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
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Re: Did the Buddha die?

Post by Spiny Norman »

dhammapal wrote: Fri Feb 14, 2020 4:07 am [EDIT: I deeply apologize for any distress caused by the title of this thread, I don't know how to edit it. Here is a deeply moving account of the Buddha's human experience of death: How the Buddha died by Venerable Dr Mettanando Bhikkhu. Dr Mettanando Bhikkhu was a physician before entering the monkhood.]

Did the Buddha die or did he just attain parinibbāna or the deathless?

“Appammattā ne miyyanti. Ye pamattā yathā matā.

The heedful do not die. The heedless, as if already dead.”


It seems pretty clear from his teachings that he didn't die and then get reborn into Nibbāna.

I know there's no definitive answer as to whether an arahant exists after death, but still I think it's important to know where this practice is going.

Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?’ Or else he is inwardly perplexed about the immediate present: ‘Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?’

“As he attends inappropriately in this way, one of six kinds of view arises in him: The view I have a self arises in him as true & established, or the view I have no self … or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive self … or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive not-self … or the view It is precisely by means of not-self that I perceive self arises in him as true & established, or else he has a view like this: This very self of mine — the knower that is sensitive here & there to the ripening of good & bad actions — is the self of mine that is constant, everlasting, eternal, not subject to change, and will endure as long as eternity. This is called a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a writhing of views, a fetter of views. Bound by a fetter of views, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is not freed from birth, aging, & death, from sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. He is not freed, I tell you, from suffering & stress. ~ the Buddha, Majjhima Nikaya 2
"What happens to a Tathagata after death" is one of the unanswered questions in the suttas.
Personally I wish the Buddha had just given a straight answer. :tongue:
Last edited by Spiny Norman on Fri Feb 14, 2020 1:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Did the Buddha die?

Post by SteRo »

dhammapal wrote: Fri Feb 14, 2020 4:07 am Did the Buddha die or did he just attain parinibbāna or the deathless?
In the eyes of the world he simply died. In the eyes of his faithful followers he attained parinibbāna.
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Re: Did the Buddha die?

Post by Spiny Norman »

In the Dona Sutta, the Buddha says he will not be reborn in any realm, which equates to liberation from samsara, the end of the cycle of birth and death.

However he doesn't say what, if anything, will happen to him. Possibly he just ceased to exist, though I'm not sure that's clear from the suttas.

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Re: Did the Buddha die?

Post by Spiny Norman »

dhammapal wrote: Fri Feb 14, 2020 4:46 am So the Buddha's five aggregates (form, feeling, perception, fabrications, consciousness) that ended with his death were not-self all along anyway? The Anurādha Sutta explains.
The Anuradha Sutta raises more questions than it answers.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Did the Buddha die?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Dinsdale wrote: Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:38 pm In the Dona Sutta, the Buddha says he will not be reborn in any realm, which equates to liberation from samsara, the end of the cycle of birth and death.

However he doesn't say what, if anything, will happen to him. Possibly he just ceased to exist, though I'm not sure that's clear from the suttas.

https://suttacentral.net/an4.36/en/bodhi

Any attempt to measure the Buddha in this life will fail. The same for final Nibbana. When there is the deathless there is no more thinking in terms of existence, non-existence or anything in between.
"Analysis and synthesis are praised by the wise,
liberation in the Sāsana comes from analysis and synthesis;
the purpose of the method of analysis and synthesis is the ultimate"


Nāmarūpapariccheda
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