3rd jhana is formless

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auto
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3rd jhana is formless

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https://suttacentral.net/sn51.22/en/sujato wrote:“Sir, do you have personal experience of going to the Brahmā realm by psychic power with a mind-made body?”“abhijānāti nu kho, bhante, bhagavā iddhiyā manomayena kāyena brahmalokaṃ upasaṅkamitā”ti?

“I do, Ānanda.”“Abhijānāmi khvāhaṃ, ānanda, iddhiyā manomayena kāyena brahmalokaṃ upasaṅkamitā”ti.

“But do you have personal experience of going to the Brahmā realm by psychic power with this body made up of the four primary elements?”“Abhijānāti pana, bhante, bhagavā iminā cātumahābhūtikena kāyena iddhiyā brahmalokaṃ upasaṅkamitā”ti?

“I do, Ānanda.”“Abhijānāmi khvāhaṃ, ānanda, iminā cātumahābhūtikena kāyena iddhiyā brahmalokaṃ upasaṅkamitā”ti.
Point is these two bodies(rupa and mano) doesn't go further than Brahma realm. And Brahma realms aren't higher than 2nd jhana.
https://suttacentral.net/an9.70/en/sujato wrote: Desire for rebirth in the realm of luminous form, desire for rebirth in the formless realm, conceit, restlessness, and ignorance.Rūparāgo, arūparāgo, māno, uddhaccaṃ, avijjā—These are the five higher fetters.imāni kho, bhikkhave, pañcuddhambhāgiyāni saṃyojanāni.
To give up these five higher fetters you should develop the four kinds of mindfulness meditation. …”Imesaṃ kho, bhikkhave, pañcannaṃ uddhambhāgiyānaṃ saṃyojanānaṃ pahānāya … pe … ime cattāro satipaṭṭhānā bhāvetabbā”ti.
desire for rebirth in the formless realm.
https://suttacentral.net/dn9/en/sujato wrote: And what is a substantial reincarnation?Katamo ca, poṭṭhapāda, oḷāriko attapaṭilābho?
It is physical, made up of the four primary elements, and consumes solid food.
Rūpī cātumahābhūtiko kabaḷīkārāhārabhakkho, ayaṃ oḷāriko attapaṭilābho.
What is a mind-made reincarnation?Katamo manomayo attapaṭilābho?
It is physical, mind-made, complete in all its various parts, not deficient in any faculty.Rūpī manomayo sabbaṅgapaccaṅgī ahīnindriyo, ayaṃ manomayo attapaṭilābho.

What is a non-physical reincarnation?Katamo arūpo attapaṭilābho?It is non-physical, made of perception.
Arūpī saññāmayo, ayaṃ arūpo attapaṭilābho.
satipatthana is developing or bringing into existence the body made of perception(saññāmaya).

In 3rd jhana the feeling what is felt with the body(kaya), the body is saññāmaya. The feeling there isn't physical nor manomaya(mindmade physical) body origin.

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frank k
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Re: 3rd jhana is formless

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Where do you get these ideas from? All four jhanas are conscious of rupa.
In AN 4.123, first jhana leads to rebirth in brahma kayika devas/brahmas.
second through fourth jhana have their names, but I assume those are all considered brahma realms as well, made of rupa.
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auto
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Re: 3rd jhana is formless

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frank k wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 4:00 pm
Where do you get these ideas from? All four jhanas are conscious of rupa.
In AN 4.123, first jhana leads to rebirth in brahma kayika devas/brahmas.
second through fourth jhana have their names, but I assume those are all considered brahma realms as well, made of rupa.
the quoted Suttas are enough, I think, to see where the idea come from.
frank k wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 4:00 pm
All four jhanas are conscious of rupa.
in second jhana you are not conscious of rupa, but mano.

Can you then put me back on sanity? explain me how all four are conscious of rupa?

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frank k
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Re: 3rd jhana is formless

Post by frank k »

http://lucid24.org/sted/8aam/8samadhi/smd5/index.html

infinite space atainment, which follows 4th jhana. Study the formula carefully,, the glosses for all the key words If one has transcended perceptions of rupa only from the 5th attainment on up, then that means one has not transcended rupa prior to that, 4th jhana and lower.
auto wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 5:28 pm
frank k wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 4:00 pm
Where do you get these ideas from? All four jhanas are conscious of rupa.
In AN 4.123, first jhana leads to rebirth in brahma kayika devas/brahmas.
second through fourth jhana have their names, but I assume those are all considered brahma realms as well, made of rupa.
the quoted Suttas are enough, I think, to see where the idea come from.
frank k wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 4:00 pm
All four jhanas are conscious of rupa.
in second jhana you are not conscious of rupa, but mano.

Can you then put me back on sanity? explain me how all four are conscious of rupa?
www.lucid24.org/sted : ☸Lucid24.org🐘 STED definitions
www.audtip.org/audtip: 🎙️🔊Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages

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frank k
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Re: 3rd jhana is formless

Post by frank k »

I don't see how your sutta quotes are relevant to the claim you're making. I don't agree with B. Sujato's interpretation of the DN 9 passage you quote. Here is B. Thanissaro:
“Poṭṭhapāda, there are these three appropriations of a self: the gross appropriation of a self, the mind-made appropriation of a self, and the formless appropriation of a self.9 And what is the gross appropriation of a self? Possessed of form, made up of the four great elements, feeding on physical food: this is the gross appropriation of a self. And what is the mind-made appropriation of a self? Possessed of form, mind-made, complete in all its parts, not inferior in its faculties: this is the mind-made appropriation of a self. And what is the formless appropriation of a self? Formless and made of perception: this is the formless appropriation of a self.

“I teach the Dhamma for the abandoning of the gross appropriation of a self, such that, when you practice it, defiling mental qualities will be abandoned, bright mental qualities will grow, and you will enter & remain in the culmination & abundance of discernment, having known & realized it for yourself in the here & now. If the thought should occur to you that, when defiling mental qualities are abandoned and bright mental qualities have grown, and one enters & remains in the culmination & abundance of discernment, having known & realized it for oneself in the here & now, one’s abiding is stressful/painful, you should not see it in that way. When defiling mental qualities are abandoned and bright mental qualities have grown, and one enters & remains in the culmination & abundance of discernment, having known & realized it for oneself in the here & now, there is joy, rapture, calm, mindfulness, alertness, and a pleasant/happy abiding.
That passage has nothing to with wishing for rebirth in those realms. One (with strong samadhi and psychic power) can obtain and manifest a mind made body in this life, in this moment. Similarly with a formless experience, it doesn't have to wait for rebirth to happen. The overall thrust of the sutta passage has to do with where one thinks a soul or abiding self resides.

auto wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 5:28 pm
frank k wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 4:00 pm
Where do you get these ideas from? All four jhanas are conscious of rupa.
In AN 4.123, first jhana leads to rebirth in brahma kayika devas/brahmas.
second through fourth jhana have their names, but I assume those are all considered brahma realms as well, made of rupa.
the quoted Suttas are enough, I think, to see where the idea come from.
frank k wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 4:00 pm
All four jhanas are conscious of rupa.
in second jhana you are not conscious of rupa, but mano.

Can you then put me back on sanity? explain me how all four are conscious of rupa?
www.lucid24.org/sted : ☸Lucid24.org🐘 STED definitions
www.audtip.org/audtip: 🎙️🔊Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages

auto
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Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: 3rd jhana is formless

Post by auto »

frank k wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 4:28 pm
http://lucid24.org/sted/8aam/8samadhi/smd5/index.html

infinite space atainment, which follows 4th jhana. Study the formula carefully,, the glosses for all the key words If one has transcended perceptions of rupa only from the 5th attainment on up, then that means one has not transcended rupa prior to that, 4th jhana and lower.
auto wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 5:28 pm
frank k wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 4:00 pm
Where do you get these ideas from? All four jhanas are conscious of rupa.
In AN 4.123, first jhana leads to rebirth in brahma kayika devas/brahmas.
second through fourth jhana have their names, but I assume those are all considered brahma realms as well, made of rupa.
the quoted Suttas are enough, I think, to see where the idea come from.
frank k wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 4:00 pm
All four jhanas are conscious of rupa.
in second jhana you are not conscious of rupa, but mano.

Can you then put me back on sanity? explain me how all four are conscious of rupa?
Okay I get it what you suggest, but
https://suttacentral.net/sn40.5/en/sujato wrote: ‘It’s when a mendicant—going totally beyond perceptions of form, with the ending of perceptions of impingement, not focusing on perceptions of diversity—aware that “space is infinite”, enters and remains in the dimension of infinite space.
‘idha bhikkhu sabbaso rūpasaññānaṃ samatikkamā paṭighasaññānaṃ atthaṅgamā nānattasaññānaṃ amanasikārā ananto ākāsoti ākāsānañcāyatanaṃ upasampajja viharati.
4th jhana is about developing rupa or rupajāti. Meanwhile instead if you cling to the void/emptiness, you will appear in 5th jhana.
---
https://suttacentral.net/sn35.136/en/sujato wrote: “Sights, sounds, tastes, smells, “Rūpā saddā rasā gandhā,
touches and thoughts, the lot of them—phassā dhammā ca kevalā;
they’re likable, desirable, and pleasurable Iṭṭhā kantā manāpā ca,
as long as you can say that they exist. yāvatatthīti vuccati.
without vaca, there is suffering
https://suttacentral.net/sn35.136/en/sujato wrote: In all the world with its gods, Sadevakassa lokassa,
this is reckoned as happiness. ete vo sukhasammatā;
And where they cease Yattha cete nirujjhanti,
this is reckoned as suffering. taṃ tesaṃ dukkhasammataṃ.
hence you need saññā, which is about 3rd jhana.

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