Buddha and dukkha

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Ceisiwr
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Buddha and dukkha

Post by Ceisiwr »

This is a continuation from an off topic discussion from the great rebirth debate thread. It seems the Buddha still experienced a type of dukkha (physical pain):


I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Rajagaha at the Maddakucchi Deer Reserve. Now at that time his foot had been pierced by a stone sliver. Excruciating were the bodily feelings that developed within him — painful, fierce, sharp, wracking, repellent, disagreeable — but he endured them mindful, alert, & unperturbed. Having had his outer robe folded in four and laid out, he lay down on his right side in the lion's posture, with one foot placed on top of the other, mindful & alert.

Then 700 devatas from the Satullapa retinue, in the far extreme of the night, their extreme radiance lighting up the entirety of Maddakucchi, went to the Blessed One. On arrival, having bowed down to him, they stood to one side.

As she was standing there, one of the devatas exclaimed in the Blessed One's presence: "What a naga is Gotama the contemplative! And like a naga, when bodily feelings have arisen — painful, fierce, sharp, wracking, repellent, disagreeable — he endures them mindful, alert, & unperturbed!"”

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
“His deliverance, being founded upon truth, is unshakeable. For that is false, bhikkhu, which has a deceptive nature, and that is true which has an undeceptive nature—Nibbāna. Therefore a bhikkhu possessing this truth possesses the supreme foundation of truth. For this, bhikkhu, is the supreme noble truth, namely, Nibbāna, which has an undeceptive nature.

Dhātuvibhaṅga Sutta
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DooDoot
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Re: Buddha and dukkha

Post by DooDoot »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:08 pm This is a continuation from an off topic discussion from the great rebirth debate thread. It seems the Buddha still experienced a type of dukkha (physical pain):


I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Rajagaha at the Maddakucchi Deer Reserve. Now at that time his foot had been pierced by a stone sliver. Excruciating were the bodily feelings that developed within him — painful, fierce, sharp, wracking, repellent, disagreeable — but he endured them mindful, alert, & unperturbed. Having had his outer robe folded in four and laid out, he lay down on his right side in the lion's posture, with one foot placed on top of the other, mindful & alert.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
I didn't notice the translation of "suffering" for any word above.
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Re: Buddha and dukkha

Post by alfa »

DooDoot wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:45 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:08 pm This is a continuation from an off topic discussion from the great rebirth debate thread. It seems the Buddha still experienced a type of dukkha (physical pain):


I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Rajagaha at the Maddakucchi Deer Reserve. Now at that time his foot had been pierced by a stone sliver. Excruciating were the bodily feelings that developed within him — painful, fierce, sharp, wracking, repellent, disagreeable — but he endured them mindful, alert, & unperturbed. Having had his outer robe folded in four and laid out, he lay down on his right side in the lion's posture, with one foot placed on top of the other, mindful & alert.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
I didn't notice the translation of "suffering" for any word above.
It says painful, though.
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Re: Buddha and dukkha

Post by SteRo »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:08 pm This is a continuation from an off topic discussion from the great rebirth debate thread. It seems the Buddha still experienced a type of dukkha (physical pain):


I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Rajagaha at the Maddakucchi Deer Reserve. Now at that time his foot had been pierced by a stone sliver. Excruciating were the bodily feelings that developed within him — painful, fierce, sharp, wracking, repellent, disagreeable — but he endured them mindful, alert, & unperturbed. Having had his outer robe folded in four and laid out, he lay down on his right side in the lion's posture, with one foot placed on top of the other, mindful & alert.

Then 700 devatas from the Satullapa retinue, in the far extreme of the night, their extreme radiance lighting up the entirety of Maddakucchi, went to the Blessed One. On arrival, having bowed down to him, they stood to one side.

As she was standing there, one of the devatas exclaimed in the Blessed One's presence: "What a naga is Gotama the contemplative! And like a naga, when bodily feelings have arisen — painful, fierce, sharp, wracking, repellent, disagreeable — he endures them mindful, alert, & unperturbed!"”

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
The Buddha teaches in two ways: through words and through body / behaviour corresponding with words.
The Blessed One said, "When touched with a feeling of pain, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person sorrows, grieves, & laments, beats his breast, becomes distraught. So he feels two pains, physical & mental. Just as if they were to shoot a man with an arrow and, right afterward, were to shoot him with another one, so that he would feel the pains of two arrows; in the same way, when touched with a feeling of pain, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person sorrows, grieves, & laments, beats his breast, becomes distraught. So he feels two pains, physical & mental.
...
"Now, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones, when touched with a feeling of pain, does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. So he feels one pain: physical, but not mental. Just as if they were to shoot a man with an arrow and, right afterward, did not shoot him with another one, so that he would feel the pain of only one arrow. In the same way, when touched with a feeling of pain, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. He feels one pain: physical, but not mental.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .html#shot
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ
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Re: Buddha and dukkha

Post by NuanceOfSuchness »

alfa wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2020 2:30 am
DooDoot wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:45 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:08 pm This is a continuation from an off topic discussion from the great rebirth debate thread. It seems the Buddha still experienced a type of dukkha (physical pain):


I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Rajagaha at the Maddakucchi Deer Reserve. Now at that time his foot had been pierced by a stone sliver. Excruciating were the bodily feelings that developed within him — painful, fierce, sharp, wracking, repellent, disagreeable — but he endured them mindful, alert, & unperturbed. Having had his outer robe folded in four and laid out, he lay down on his right side in the lion's posture, with one foot placed on top of the other, mindful & alert.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
I didn't notice the translation of "suffering" for any word above.
It says painful, though.
I concur with DD. Suffering is described as originating from thoughts. It is quite tremendous how our thoughts create suffering over that of our sensate experience. The sensate experience is just what it is.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Buddha and dukkha

Post by Ceisiwr »

NuanceOfSuchness wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2020 6:25 am
alfa wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2020 2:30 am
DooDoot wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:45 pm
I didn't notice the translation of "suffering" for any word above.
It says painful, though.
I concur with DD. Suffering is described as originating from thoughts. It is quite tremendous how our thoughts create suffering over that of our sensate experience. The sensate experience is just what it is.



"Monks, there are these three kinds of suffering.[1] What three? Suffering caused by pain,[2] suffering caused by the formations (or conditioned existence),[3] suffering due to change.[4] It is for the full comprehension, clear understanding, ending and abandonment of these three forms of suffering that the Noble Eightfold Path is to be cultivated..."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .wlsh.html


As the earlier sutta states that the Buddha endured painful feelings it follows that he still experienced the 1st type of dukkha, just not the 2nd or 3rd. The 1st type only ceases at final death, which is the cessation of all dukkha. Therefore, the Buddha still experienced some dukkha.
“His deliverance, being founded upon truth, is unshakeable. For that is false, bhikkhu, which has a deceptive nature, and that is true which has an undeceptive nature—Nibbāna. Therefore a bhikkhu possessing this truth possesses the supreme foundation of truth. For this, bhikkhu, is the supreme noble truth, namely, Nibbāna, which has an undeceptive nature.

Dhātuvibhaṅga Sutta
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NuanceOfSuchness
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Re: Buddha and dukkha

Post by NuanceOfSuchness »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2020 7:15 am
NuanceOfSuchness wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2020 6:25 am
alfa wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2020 2:30 am

It says painful, though.
I concur with DD. Suffering is described as originating from thoughts. It is quite tremendous how our thoughts create suffering over that of our sensate experience. The sensate experience is just what it is.



"Monks, there are these three kinds of suffering.[1] What three? Suffering caused by pain,[2] suffering caused by the formations (or conditioned existence),[3] suffering due to change.[4] It is for the full comprehension, clear understanding, ending and abandonment of these three forms of suffering that the Noble Eightfold Path is to be cultivated..."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .wlsh.html


As the earlier sutta states that the Buddha endured painful feelings it follows that he still experienced the 1st type of dukkha, just not the 2nd or 3rd. The 1st type only ceases at final death, which is the cessation of all dukkha. Therefore, the Buddha still experienced some dukkha.
I'm clearly not able to comprehend suffering to these degrees, at least experientially. I notice in the link it describes Dukkha-dukkhataa as having the quality of mental anguish but then goes on to describe Sankhaara-dukkhataa as suffering originating from conditioned existence which, in my carefully considered observations, manifests through mind. Slightly confusing. How are you able to juxtapose these two either experientially or conceptually?
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Re: Buddha and dukkha

Post by AlexBrains92 »

“From whatever one reins in the mind,
From that no suffering comes to one.
Should one rein in the mind from everything,
One is freed from all suffering.”
(SN 1.24)
"If appeasement of desires is what is really blissful, 'desirelessness' as the appeasement of all desires would be the Supreme Bliss, and this in fact is what Nibbāna is." (Bhikkhu Kaṭukurunde Ñāṇananda)
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Re: Buddha and dukkha

Post by Ceisiwr »

AlexBrains92 wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2020 8:49 am “From whatever one reins in the mind,
From that no suffering comes to one.
Should one rein in the mind from everything,
One is freed from all suffering.”
(SN 1.24)

Why then does he endure painful feelings? If they weren’t dukkha then he wouldn’t have to endure them.
“His deliverance, being founded upon truth, is unshakeable. For that is false, bhikkhu, which has a deceptive nature, and that is true which has an undeceptive nature—Nibbāna. Therefore a bhikkhu possessing this truth possesses the supreme foundation of truth. For this, bhikkhu, is the supreme noble truth, namely, Nibbāna, which has an undeceptive nature.

Dhātuvibhaṅga Sutta
SteRo
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Re: Buddha and dukkha

Post by SteRo »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2020 9:33 am Why then does he endure painful feelings?
You are confusing bodily pain with painful feelings.
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ
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Re: Buddha and dukkha

Post by char101 »

Physical pain is nerve signal. Since the Buddha still have physical body, by reason it stands that he still felt physical pain. On the other hand if one want to get rid of physical pain, one can just use anesthetics/drugs, no need for enlightenment.
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Re: Buddha and dukkha

Post by AlexBrains92 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2020 9:33 am Why then does he endure painful feelings? If they weren’t dukkha then he wouldn’t have to endure them.
There's no longer the illusion to be someone who was born, suffers, will die...
The body feels pain, but there is no longer identification with the body.
It's a phenomenological matter. No more subject, no more object.
Last edited by AlexBrains92 on Thu Feb 06, 2020 9:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
"If appeasement of desires is what is really blissful, 'desirelessness' as the appeasement of all desires would be the Supreme Bliss, and this in fact is what Nibbāna is." (Bhikkhu Kaṭukurunde Ñāṇananda)
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Re: Buddha and dukkha

Post by SteRo »

Also, since the Buddha teaches through words and body / behaviour it cannot tbe known whether he experiences bodily pain. But he teaches those who might not even have attained sotapanna, so he uses the most appropriate way to teach.
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Buddha and dukkha

Post by Ceisiwr »

AlexBrains92 wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2020 9:47 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2020 9:33 am Why then does he endure painful feelings? If they weren’t dukkha then he wouldn’t have to endure them.
There's no longer the illusion to be someone who was born, suffers, will die...
The body feels pain, but there is no longer identification with the body.
It's a phenomenological matter. No more subject, no more object.


Accept the Buddha defined pain as a form of dukkha, the total cessation of which comes at physical death (which incidentally is an argument for the Buddha teaching kamma and rebirth). From another yet similar sutta:

“"There are these three forms of dukkha, my friend: the dukkha of pain, the dukkha of fabrication, the dukkha of change. These are the three forms of dukkha."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html


He is clearly stating that painful feelings are dukkha in of themselves. As the other sutta showed that the Buddha still experienced pain, it follows that he still experienced a form of dukkha. He was struck by the first dart of dukkha but not the second and at death all dukkha ceases. That’s the difference between the Buddha/an Arahant and the unawakened man/woman.
“His deliverance, being founded upon truth, is unshakeable. For that is false, bhikkhu, which has a deceptive nature, and that is true which has an undeceptive nature—Nibbāna. Therefore a bhikkhu possessing this truth possesses the supreme foundation of truth. For this, bhikkhu, is the supreme noble truth, namely, Nibbāna, which has an undeceptive nature.

Dhātuvibhaṅga Sutta
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Buddha and dukkha

Post by Ceisiwr »

AlexBrains92 wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2020 9:47 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2020 9:33 am Why then does he endure painful feelings? If they weren’t dukkha then he wouldn’t have to endure them.
There's no longer the illusion to be someone who was born, suffers, will die...
The body feels pain, but there is no longer identification with the body.
It's a phenomenological matter. No more subject, no more object.


The Buddha didn’t constantly dwell in that sphere. Ven. Nanananda makes this point quite well in his book on Dependent Origination and, if I remember correctly, in “The Magic of the Mind”.

The Buddha’s mind came back to the constructed world, which includes within it the dukkha of physical pain.
“His deliverance, being founded upon truth, is unshakeable. For that is false, bhikkhu, which has a deceptive nature, and that is true which has an undeceptive nature—Nibbāna. Therefore a bhikkhu possessing this truth possesses the supreme foundation of truth. For this, bhikkhu, is the supreme noble truth, namely, Nibbāna, which has an undeceptive nature.

Dhātuvibhaṅga Sutta
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