Bad Times

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Ceisiwr
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Bad Times

Post by Ceisiwr »

When things aren’t quite going your way is it wise to reflect that it might be due to past kamma, or would that be unwise speculation?
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Sam Vara
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Re: Bad Times

Post by Sam Vara »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:59 pm When things aren’t quite going your way is it wise to reflect that it might be due to past kamma, or would that be unwise speculation?
My guess is that we ought to reflect that in general our current situation might be at least in part kammically determined, because of this:
"'I am the owner of my actions,[1] heir to my actions, born of my actions, related through my actions, and have my actions as my arbitrator. Whatever I do, for good or for evil, to that will I fall heir.' ...

"These are the five facts that one should reflect on often, whether one is a woman or a man, lay or ordained.
(AN 5.57)

and this:
"Now what, monks, is old kamma? The eye is to be seen as old kamma, fabricated & willed, capable of being felt. The ear... The nose... The tongue... The body... The intellect is to be seen as old kamma, fabricated & willed, capable of being felt. This is called old kamma.
(SN 35.145)

But it would be a mistake to worry about kammic links which are not immediately apparent, and to speculate about them. Most of us don't have the capacity to do that effectively and fruitfully.
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SDC
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Re: Bad Times

Post by SDC »

It is only one of eight "originations" of feelings discussed 8n the sutta below. To consider it the only one is to, "...overshoot what one knows by oneself and they overshoot what is considered to be true in the world."

SN 36.21 wrote:On one occasion the Blessed One was dwelling at Rajagaha in the Bamboo Grove, the Squirrel Sanctuary. Then the wanderer Moḷiyasīvaka approached the Blessed One and exchanged greetings with him. When they had concluded their greetings and cordial talk, he sat down to one side and said to the Blessed One:

“Master Gotama, there are some ascetics and brahmins who hold such a doctrine and view as this: ‘Whatever a person experiences, whether it be pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant, all that is caused by what was done in the past.’ What does Master Gotama say about this?”

“Some feelings, Sīvaka, arise here originating from bile disorders: that some feelings arise here originating from bile disorders one can know for oneself, and that is considered to be true in the world. Now when those ascetics and brahmins hold such a doctrine and view as this, ‘Whatever a person experiences, whether it be pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant, all that is caused by what was done in the past,’ they overshoot what one knows by oneself and they overshoot what is considered to be true in the world. Therefore I say that this is wrong on the part of those ascetics and brahmins.

“Some feelings, Sīvaka, arise here originating from phlegm disorders … originating from wind disorders … originating from an imbalance of the three … produced by change of climate … produced by careless behaviourcaused by assaultproduced as the result of kamma: that some feelings arise here produced as the result of kamma one can know for oneself, and that is considered to be true in the world. Now when those ascetics and brahmins hold such a doctrine and view as this, ‘Whatever a person experiences, whether it be pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant, all that is caused by what was done in the past,’ they overshoot what one knows by oneself and they overshoot what is considered to be true in the world. Therefore I say that this is wrong on the part of those ascetics and brahmins.”

When this was said, the wanderer Moḷiyasīvaka said to the Blessed One: “Magnificent, Master Gotama! Magnificent, Master Gotama!… From today let Master Gotama remember me as a lay follower who has gone for refuge for life.”

Bile, phlegm, and also wind,
Imbalance and climate too,
Carelessness and assault,
With kamma result as the eighth.
char101
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Re: Bad Times

Post by char101 »

Code: Select all

When things don't go your way:
- Can you do something about it?
  - Yes -> do something about it
  - No ->
    - Can you accept it?
      - Yes -> acceptance
      - No -> practice equanimity by recollecting that kamma is one's own protector, kamma is one's own inheritance.
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DooDoot
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Re: Bad Times

Post by DooDoot »

Knowable past kamma is not speculative.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Mkoll
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Re: Bad Times

Post by Mkoll »

Sam Vara wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 9:20 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:59 pm When things aren’t quite going your way is it wise to reflect that it might be due to past kamma, or would that be unwise speculation?
My guess is that we ought to reflect that in general our current situation might be at least in part kammically determined, because of this:
"'I am the owner of my actions,[1] heir to my actions, born of my actions, related through my actions, and have my actions as my arbitrator. Whatever I do, for good or for evil, to that will I fall heir.' ...

"These are the five facts that one should reflect on often, whether one is a woman or a man, lay or ordained.
(AN 5.57)

and this:
"Now what, monks, is old kamma? The eye is to be seen as old kamma, fabricated & willed, capable of being felt. The ear... The nose... The tongue... The body... The intellect is to be seen as old kamma, fabricated & willed, capable of being felt. This is called old kamma.
(SN 35.145)

But it would be a mistake to worry about kammic links which are not immediately apparent, and to speculate about them. Most of us don't have the capacity to do that effectively and fruitfully.
:goodpost:
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
MettaDevPrac
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Re: Bad Times

Post by MettaDevPrac »

When things aren’t quite going your way is it wise to reflect that it might be due to past kamma, or would that be unwise speculation?
Perhaps examining one's intentions, or attachments, or methods, or the situation, with immediacy or in that present first? I think this is where the practice lives. You cannot change past kamma; but what allowed it to ripen? What makes good kamma?
- MettaDevPrac
SteRo
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Re: Bad Times

Post by SteRo »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:59 pm When things aren’t quite going your way is it wise to reflect that it might be due to past kamma, or would that be unwise speculation?
In this case it's always due to past kamma. Why? Because things being one's way or things not being one's way is ignorant thinking cultivated in the past and thus there is corresponding appearance in the present.
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ
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Mr Man
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Re: Bad Times

Post by Mr Man »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:59 pm When things aren’t quite going your way is it wise to reflect that it might be due to past kamma, or would that be unwise speculation?
If we are using the reflection to rectify yes.

If we are using the reflection to rationalise no.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Bad Times

Post by Ceisiwr »

Mr Man wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2020 7:47 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:59 pm When things aren’t quite going your way is it wise to reflect that it might be due to past kamma, or would that be unwise speculation?
If we are using the reflection to rectify yes.

If we are using the reflection to rationalise no.

What do you mean by rationalise?
“His deliverance, being founded upon truth, is unshakeable. For that is false, bhikkhu, which has a deceptive nature, and that is true which has an undeceptive nature—Nibbāna. Therefore a bhikkhu possessing this truth possesses the supreme foundation of truth. For this, bhikkhu, is the supreme noble truth, namely, Nibbāna, which has an undeceptive nature.

Dhātuvibhaṅga Sutta
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Bad Times

Post by Ceisiwr »

Some good thoughts. Thanks everyone :smile:
“His deliverance, being founded upon truth, is unshakeable. For that is false, bhikkhu, which has a deceptive nature, and that is true which has an undeceptive nature—Nibbāna. Therefore a bhikkhu possessing this truth possesses the supreme foundation of truth. For this, bhikkhu, is the supreme noble truth, namely, Nibbāna, which has an undeceptive nature.

Dhātuvibhaṅga Sutta
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robertk
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Re: Bad Times

Post by robertk »

viewtopic.php?t=336

Basic points are discussed here.
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Mr Man
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Re: Bad Times

Post by Mr Man »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2020 8:13 am
Mr Man wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2020 7:47 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:59 pm When things aren’t quite going your way is it wise to reflect that it might be due to past kamma, or would that be unwise speculation?
If we are using the reflection to rectify yes.

If we are using the reflection to rationalise no.

What do you mean by rationalise?
I am where I am due to some undetermined action at some undetermined time and that is my lot and there is not much I can do about it.
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DooDoot
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Re: Bad Times

Post by DooDoot »

SteRo wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2020 7:39 amBecause things being one's way or things not being one's way is ignorant thinking...
Things not going one's way could be wise thinking; which promotes positive change. For example, in SN 12.23, it is said suffering is the cause for faith in the Dhamma. In the 1st sermon, the Buddha said: "suffering is to be comprehended".
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
MettaDevPrac
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Re: Bad Times

Post by MettaDevPrac »

Everything due to kamma is a disputed point
https://suttacentral.net/kv17.3/en/aung-rhysdavids

Entire sutta at links, just final summary quoted.
https://suttacentral.net/mn136/en/thanissaro
“So, Ananda, there is kamma that is incapable (of good result) and appears incapable (of good result); there is kamma that is incapable (of good result) and appears capable (of good result); there is kamma that is capable (of good result) and appears capable (of good result); there is kamma that is capable (of good result) and appears incapable (of good result).”
another translation
https://suttacentral.net/mn136/en/sujato
So, Ānanda, there are deeds that are ineffective and appear ineffective. There are deeds that are ineffective but appear effective. There are deeds that are effective and appear effective. And there are deeds that are effective but appear ineffective.”
- MettaDevPrac
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