A perspective on understanding the Buddha's words

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sunnat
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Re: A perspective on understanding the Buddha's words

Post by sunnat » Sun Jan 19, 2020 12:09 pm

Words cause by reflection (within the person experiencing the words) that (in turn) changes the relationship of the reader to (any) arisen phenomena which depends on pre existing relationships. There is nothing intrinsic about words by buddha (or anyone) that have some sort of transformative quality apart from (or separate from) these pre existing qualities. It all (the causes) are dependent on wisdom arisen from practice.

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DooDoot
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Re: A perspective on understanding the Buddha's words

Post by DooDoot » Mon Jan 20, 2020 2:54 am

SarathW wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 9:54 am
There are some Sutta to say, that listening to Buddha some became... none.
;)
SarathW wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 9:54 am
There are some Sutta to say, that listening to Buddha some became Sotapanna, some became Sakdhagame, some became Anagama, and some became Arahants. That means even Buddha's word brings different results. Perhaps that means people are on different levels of the path. So practicing the path is the key.
Mostly, the above is about samadhi or jhana. Generally, only those who already developed 4th jhana prior to hearing the Buddha became Arahants when hearing the Buddha.
SteRo wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 7:52 am
...
Jhana is crucial for uprooting the natural tendency or programming towards sensual desire. The Pali suttas make it clear jhana is required to overcome temptations towards sensuality. Yet SteRo believes no self-view alone will do this. This is why SteRo cannot intellectually imagine how a stream-enterer can have sensual desire. The Buddha said:
But when he has clearly seen as it actually is with right discernment that sensuality is of much stress, much despair & greater drawbacks, and he has attained a rapture & pleasure apart from sensuality, apart from unskillful mental qualities, or something more peaceful than that, he cannot be tempted by sensuality.

MN 14
If over-coming self-identity view alone could uproot craving, the Buddha would not have taught an Eightfold Path including the four jhanas. This is so basic. Any deviance from this appears obviously heretical.
SteRo wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 7:52 am
...
SteRo is now posting 'happiness' ('cetosukham') depends on the delusive self. :roll: :|
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: A perspective on understanding the Buddha's words

Post by DooDoot » Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:18 am

SteRo wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 7:52 am
That's exactly the point. 'diṭṭhi' means 'view' and that refers to conceptual belief not to perception. You just don't get this difference.
I don't recall the Buddha ever teaching about 'self-perception'. Since 'self' is a 'view' or 'sankhara' (SN 22.81; SN 5.10; etc), how can it be a 'perception' ('sanna')? :shrug: :roll:
SteRo wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 7:52 am
You may reject that but that then entails that you will not get the progress on the path correctly and will not have a reliable measure as to assessment of your own progress. This will foster doubt and uncertainty.
Please. Don't post as though you know what the Path is if you can't even understand how a stream-enterer has sensual desire. You appear to not know of non-thought defilement energies (kilesa) that are of a different nature/substance to superficial view & thought.
SteRo wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 7:52 am
There are different level of self-exerience. Non-conceptual perception and conceptual view. And there are even different levels of conceptual view: nominal subtle self which lacks personality and coarse self which even feels like having personality and even autobiographical history.
:? :roll:
SteRo wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 7:52 am
The suttas remain obscure as to self and exclusively talk about view.
The suttas are not obscure. The clearly say self is a view; that there is no self apart from view.
SteRo wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 7:52 am
non-conceptual delusive self-perception
Sorry but the above does not appear to exist in the suttas.
SteRo wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 7:52 am
Sexual desire depends on sense objects, senses, aggregates and self-perception. You don't need to have knowledge about "biological chemistry & hormones" for sexual desire to arise.
Biology is an aggregate called 'rupa', comprised in brief of earth, wind, fire & water. It appears sensuality ultimately depends on itself, as I posted. The Buddha said sensuality is an element (SN 14.12; MN 115) & underlying tendency (AN 7.11; MN 64). The Buddha (SN 14.12) said from the element of sensuality arises sensual perceptions. The Buddha did not say from sensual perceptions arises the element of sensuality. Sensuality exists independent of sense objects and self. That is why female dogs suddenly have "heat" and why insects & other primitive life forms engage in sexual intercourse. I imagine most people, if they lived their entire lives alone in a dark cave, would begin to have sexual desires upon reaching puberty and suddenly non-volitionally ejaculating, menstruating & getting horny. If sensuality was merely a "thought", as you appear to claim, then meditators could easily stop these thoughts. Sensuality is an internal energetic drive, which is why the Buddha declared his liberation to be the destruction of craving (rather than the superficial Mahayana idea of ending conceptual thought). Ending conceptual thought won't end the energetic instinctual drive of craving. :smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: A perspective on understanding the Buddha's words

Post by alfa » Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:22 am

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:18 am
SteRo wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 7:52 am
That's exactly the point. 'diṭṭhi' means 'view' and that refers to conceptual belief not to perception. You just don't get this difference.
I don't recall the Buddha ever teaching about 'self-perception'. Since 'self' is a 'view' or 'sankhara' (SN 22.81; SN 5.10; etc), how can it be a 'perception' ('sanna')? :shrug: :roll:
SteRo wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 7:52 am
You may reject that but that then entails that you will not get the progress on the path correctly and will not have a reliable measure as to assessment of your own progress. This will foster doubt and uncertainty.
Please. Don't post as though you know what the Path is if you can't even understand how a stream-enterer has sensual desire. You appear to not know of non-thought defilement energies (kilesa) that are of a different nature/substance to superficial view & thought.
SteRo wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 7:52 am
There are different level of self-exerience. Non-conceptual perception and conceptual view. And there are even different levels of conceptual view: nominal subtle self which lacks personality and coarse self which even feels like having personality and even autobiographical history.
:? :roll:
SteRo wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 7:52 am
The suttas remain obscure as to self and exclusively talk about view.
The suttas are not obscure. The clearly say self is a view; that there is no self apart from view.
SteRo wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 7:52 am
non-conceptual delusive self-perception
Sorry but the above does not appear to exist in the suttas.
SteRo wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 7:52 am
Sexual desire depends on sense objects, senses, aggregates and self-perception. You don't need to have knowledge about "biological chemistry & hormones" for sexual desire to arise.
Biology is an aggregate called 'rupa', comprised in brief of earth, wind, fire & water. It appears sensuality ultimately depends on itself, as I posted. The Buddha said sensuality is an element (SN 14.12; MN 115) & underlying tendency (AN 7.11; MN 64). The Buddha (SN 14.12) said from the element of sensuality arises sensual perceptions. The Buddha did not say from sensual perceptions arises the element of sensuality. Sensuality exists independent of sense objects and self. That is why female dogs suddenly have "heat" and why insects & other primitive life forms engage in sexual intercourse. I imagine most people, if they lived their entire lives alone in a dark cave, would begin to have sexual desires upon reaching puberty and suddenly non-volitionally ejaculating, menstruating & getting horny. If sensuality was merely a "thought", as you appear to claim, then meditators could easily stop these thoughts. Sensuality is an internal energetic drive, which is why the Buddha declared his liberation to be the destruction of craving (rather than the superficial Mahayana idea of ending conceptual thought). Ending conceptual thought won't end the energetic instinctual drive of craving. :smile:
I think this makes sense. Sensuality cannot be a mere thought, it is deeply ingrained, which is what makes it all-powerful and hard to overcome.

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Re: A perspective on understanding the Buddha's words

Post by retrofuturist » Mon Jan 20, 2020 5:44 am

Greetings char101,
char101 wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:47 am
Or in other words, the understanding of language might not fully describe the meaning of the teachings of the Buddha.
Here I agree...
S I 39, Nāmasutta. wrote:"Name has conquered everything,
There is nothing greater than name,
All have gone under the sway
Of this one thing called name."
If someone takes a scholarly lens, and tries to conquer the Dhamma by conquering the words therein, they are undertaking an exercise in futility.
char101 wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:47 am
What is written in the texts should only be taken as instructions to practice. From practice, true understanding will grow. Learning -> practice -> understanding. Don't expect to understand the meaning of the words by just reading about it.
But here I do not agree.

Your view expressed appears to be one influenced by the "meditation traditions" which gained prominence in the 20th century. As has been said many times here at this forum, the suttas show people becoming stream-entrants whilst listening to and reflecting upon the teaching of the Buddha. There are little to no examples in the suttas of them becoming a stream-entrant by them going off and doing a "practice". It is only once established in Right View (i.e. becoming sotapanna) that they are able to practice in order to accelerate the transition to arahantship. It is only at that point that they are regarded as sekha (i.e. "a trainee", contrast with an arahant who is asekha "not a trainee, i.e. beyond training")... a puthujjana is neither sekha nor asekha.

A more accurate flow, therefore, modelled on the terminology you use would be:

Learning > Become established In Right View > Practice For Arahantship > Right Understanding

In summary, the quote you bring is interesting, but I don't think it necessarily means what you think it means. It is common for the "meditation traditions" to de-emphasize Right View, and to shift that emphasis to "the method". This trend has no sutta support.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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Re: A perspective on understanding the Buddha's words

Post by char101 » Mon Jan 20, 2020 6:14 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 5:44 am
Your view expressed appears to be one influenced by the "meditation traditions" which gained prominence in the 20th century. As has been said many times here at this forum, the suttas show people becoming stream-entrants whilst listening to and reflecting upon the teaching of the Buddha.
Those who attain enlightment by listening to the Buddha's sermon are special types of people: http://www.myanmarnet.net/nibbana/individu.htm

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Re: A perspective on understanding the Buddha's words

Post by SteRo » Mon Jan 20, 2020 6:37 am

DooDoot, I interpret your non-quotes that you would like to converse about the topic you are elaborating following the non-quote because through that non-quote you obviously intend to draw my intention to what you are elaborating which includes your hypothesis about my views or beliefs.
DooDoot wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 2:54 am
SteRo wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 7:52 am
...
Jhana is crucial for uprooting the natural tendency or programming towards sensual desire. The Pali suttas make it clear jhana is required to overcome temptations towards sensuality. Yet SteRo believes no self-view alone will do this. This is why SteRo cannot intellectually imagine how a stream-enterer can have sensual desire. The Buddha said:
But when he has clearly seen as it actually is with right discernment that sensuality is of much stress, much despair & greater drawbacks, and he has attained a rapture & pleasure apart from sensuality, apart from unskillful mental qualities, or something more peaceful than that, he cannot be tempted by sensuality.

MN 14
I completely agree that both, the rupa and the arupa jhanas are necessary to abandon ignorance. Sensual desire is just a manifestation of ignorance as are non-conceptual self-perceptions and appropriation of aggregates and conceptual self-views/beliefs.
DooDoot wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 2:54 am
If over-coming self-identity view alone could uproot craving, the Buddha would not have taught an Eightfold Path including the four jhanas. This is so basic. Any deviance from this appears obviously heretical.
You are right that abandonment of conceptual self-identity view/belief alone does not uproot craving since the sotapanna still has sensual desire. And you are right that the Eightfold Path including the four jhanas is inevitable because the Eightfold Path including the eight jhanas is inevitable.
DooDoot wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 2:54 am
SteRo wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 7:52 am
...
SteRo is now posting 'happiness' ('cetosukham') depends on the delusive self. :roll: :|
I can neither affirm nor deny this because the jhanas known to have sukkha are - like all the other jhanas - an essential practice on the Path of Meditation on which ignorant self-perception is irreversibly abandoned. But I cannot say whether these are essential to illustrate the remainders of ignorant self-perception after the abandonment of which sukkha also will be abandoned or whether these are essential to illustrate the remainders of ignorant self-perception after the abandonment of which sukkha still will be possible.

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Re: A perspective on understanding the Buddha's words

Post by SteRo » Mon Jan 20, 2020 7:02 am

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:18 am
SteRo wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 7:52 am
That's exactly the point. 'diṭṭhi' means 'view' and that refers to conceptual belief not to perception. You just don't get this difference.
I don't recall the Buddha ever teaching about 'self-perception'. Since 'self' is a 'view' or 'sankhara' (SN 22.81; SN 5.10; etc), how can it be a 'perception' ('sanna')? :shrug: :roll:
That's no problem since I do not deny the Buddha's teachings on conceptual self-view/belief. It is just that based on experience and other sutric teachings I do add a more fundmental subliminal impulse towards self which I call 'non-conceptual self-perception' and which is what actually might transform or grow into conceptual self-view/belief.
DooDoot wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:18 am
SteRo wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 7:52 am
You may reject that but that then entails that you will not get the progress on the path correctly and will not have a reliable measure as to assessment of your own progress. This will foster doubt and uncertainty.
Please. Don't post as though you know what the Path is if you can't even understand how a stream-enterer has sensual desire. You appear to not know of non-thought defilement energies (kilesa) that are of a different nature/substance to superficial view & thought.
It is exactly because I know of non-thought defilement energies like kilesas and asavas that I differentiate between conceptual self-view/belief and 'non-conceptual self-perception'.
DooDoot wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:18 am
SteRo wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 7:52 am
The suttas remain obscure as to self and exclusively talk about view.
The suttas are not obscure. The clearly say self is a view; that there is no self apart from view.
There is no self apart from ignorance and conceptual self-view/belief is a manifestation of ignorance, right. But subliminal 'non-conceptual self-perception' is a manifestation of ignorance which is a precursor of conceptual self-view/belief.
DooDoot wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:18 am
SteRo wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 7:52 am
non-conceptual delusive self-perception
Sorry but the above does not appear to exist in the suttas.
No problem, you can ignore my words. I do not post what I post to persuade you to anything.
DooDoot wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:18 am
SteRo wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 7:52 am
Sexual desire depends on sense objects, senses, aggregates and self-perception. You don't need to have knowledge about "biological chemistry & hormones" for sexual desire to arise.
Biology is an aggregate called 'rupa', comprised in brief of earth, wind, fire & water. It appears sensuality ultimately depends on itself, as I posted. The Buddha said sensuality is an element (SN 14.12; MN 115) & underlying tendency (AN 7.11; MN 64). The Buddha (SN 14.12) said from the element of sensuality arises sensual perceptions. The Buddha did not say from sensual perceptions arises the element of sensuality. Sensuality exists independent of sense objects and self. That is why female dogs suddenly have "heat" and why insects & other primitive life forms engage in sexual intercourse. I imagine most people, if they lived their entire lives alone in a dark cave, would begin to have sexual desires upon reaching puberty and suddenly non-volitionally ejaculating, menstruating & getting horny. If sensuality was merely a "thought", as you appear to claim, then meditators could easily stop these thoughts. Sensuality is an internal energetic drive, which is why the Buddha declared his liberation to be the destruction of craving (rather than the superficial Mahayana idea of ending conceptual thought). Ending conceptual thought won't end the energetic instinctual drive of craving. :smile:
Whatever appears appropriate to you I don't mind. It is just that I said that biology is a worldly non-dhammic science and worldly non-dhammic sciences are not necessary for understanding the Buddha's teachings and practicing the Eighfold Path. That pushed you to insist on biology. Keep practicing your biologically colored dhamma, I don't mind but I won't practice a biologically colored dhamma.

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Re: A perspective on understanding the Buddha's words

Post by sunnat » Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:33 am

To not do evil, to do good and to purify the mind is the teaching of the Buddhas. This is doable by all irrespective of origin and education. There is no need to be able to read. If you can follow, likemany then and since, the basic body contemplation instructions in the satipatthana sutta you can go all the way to the goal with no further instructions. There is no need to understand more. It's all just a matter of how diligently you practice.

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Re: A perspective on understanding the Buddha's words

Post by retrofuturist » Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:37 am

Greetings Char101,
retrofuturist wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 5:44 am
Your view expressed appears to be one influenced by the "meditation traditions" which gained prominence in the 20th century. As has been said many times here at this forum, the suttas show people becoming stream-entrants whilst listening to and reflecting upon the teaching of the Buddha.
char101 wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 6:14 am
Those who attain enlightment by listening to the Buddha's sermon are special types of people: http://www.myanmarnet.net/nibbana/individu.htm
By posting a link to apocryphal Burmese texts, you've effectively made my point for me. Sorry, such fruitlessness is of no interest to me, nor is it my refuge.

Kind regards.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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Re: A perspective on understanding the Buddha's words

Post by SteRo » Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:49 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 5:44 am
Your view expressed appears to be one influenced by the "meditation traditions" which gained prominence in the 20th century. As has been said many times here at this forum, the suttas show people becoming stream-entrants whilst listening to and reflecting upon the teaching of the Buddha. There are little to no examples in the suttas of them becoming a stream-entrant by them going off and doing a "practice".
This is strange. Obviously you don't consider "listening to and reflecting upon the teaching of the Buddha" to be practice. But practice is listening, studying, thinking about and meditation about.

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Re: A perspective on understanding the Buddha's words

Post by retrofuturist » Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:59 am

Greetings,
SteRo wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:49 am
Obviously you don't consider "listening to and reflecting upon the teaching of the Buddha" to be practice.
False. Contemplation of the Dhamma is a practice.
SteRo wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:49 am
But practice is listening, studying, thinking about and meditation about.
This sentence does not make much sense.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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Re: A perspective on understanding the Buddha's words

Post by SteRo » Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:02 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:59 am
Greetings,
SteRo wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:49 am
Obviously you don't consider "listening to and reflecting upon the teaching of the Buddha" to be practice.
False. Contemplation of the Dhamma is a practice.
Difficult. Could you explain what you conceive to be the difference between "reflecting upon" and "Contemplation"?
retrofuturist wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:59 am
SteRo wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:49 am
But practice is listening, studying, thinking about and meditation about.
This sentence does not make much sense.
For me it makes perfect sense. But it is no exclusive statement. I.e. there are also other practices

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Re: A perspective on understanding the Buddha's words

Post by char101 » Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:08 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:37 am
By posting a link to apocryphal Burmese texts, you've effectively made my point for me. Sorry, such fruitlessness is of no interest to me, nor is it my refuge.
It is written in the puggala pannati and also in one of the dipani by Ven. Ledi Sayadaw. Are you saying you have more authentic knowledge than the puggala panatti and more authentic than Ven. Ledi?

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Re: A perspective on understanding the Buddha's words

Post by SteRo » Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:29 am

char101 wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 6:14 am
Those who attain enlightment by listening to the Buddha's sermon are special types of people
I think that's impossible nowadays and requires the presence of a Buddha. If it happened in Buddha's times then because those had already achieved appropriate attainments in former lives, possibly in the presence of former Buddhas or on the path of a Pacceka Buddha

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