Are Therevadins the true heretics?

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Re: Are Therevadins the true heretics?

Post by DNS » Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:17 pm

I had already edited my post when you posted above.

I added:
Exists, but with conditions, dependent on nama-rupa, conditioned contact, etc., as in DO.

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Re: Are Therevadins the true heretics?

Post by Ceisiwr » Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:21 pm

DNS wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:17 pm
I had already edited my post when you posted above.

I added:
Exists, but with conditions, dependent on nama-rupa, conditioned contact, etc., as in DO.


So you are using “exist” in a conventional sense?
“Lust is a maker of signs. Aversion is a maker of signs. Delusion is a maker of signs.” MN 43

"Rooted in desire, friends, are all phenomena; originating in attention, are all phenomena”
— A. v. 106

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Re: Are Therevadins the true heretics?

Post by DNS » Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:27 pm

SN 22.94

“And what is agreed upon by the wise as existing in the world that I too say, ‘It exists’?

“Form that’s inconstant, stressful, subject to change is agreed upon by the wise as existing in the world, and I too say, ‘It exists.’

“Feeling that’s inconstant, stressful, subject to change is agreed upon by the wise as existing in the world, and I too say, ‘It exists.’

“Perception that’s inconstant, stressful, subject to change is agreed upon by the wise as existing in the world, and I too say, ‘It exists.’

“Fabrications that are inconstant, stressful, subject to change are agreed upon by the wise as existing in the world, and I too say, ‘They exist.’

“Consciousness that’s inconstant, stressful, subject to change is agreed upon by the wise as existing in the world, and I too say, ‘It exists.’2

“Monks, there is a world-phenomenon in the world that the Tathāgata directly awakens to, breaks through to. Directly awakening to & breaking through to that, he declares it, teaches it, describes it, sets it forth. He reveals it, explains it, makes it plain. And what is a world-phenomenon in the world that the Tathāgata directly awakens to, breaks through to, that—directly awakening to & breaking through to it—he declares, teaches, describes, sets forth, reveals, explains, makes plain?3

“Form is a world-phenomenon in the world that the Tathāgata directly awakens to, breaks through to. Directly awakening to & breaking through to that, he declares it, teaches it, describes it, sets it forth. He reveals it, explains it, makes it plain. Whoever—when that is being declared, taught, described, set forth, revealed, explained, & made plain by the Tathāgata—doesn’t know, doesn’t see, then what can I do for that fool, that run-of-the-mill person: blind, without eye-sight, not knowing, not seeing?
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN22_94.html

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Re: Are Therevadins the true heretics?

Post by DNS » Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:39 pm

Does not exist, everything is illusion, does not apply. Everything exists and is permanent, does not apply.

SN 12.15

"'Everything exists': That is one extreme. 'Everything doesn't exist': That is a second extreme. Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle: From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

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Re: Are Therevadins the true heretics?

Post by Ceisiwr » Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:14 pm

DNS wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:27 pm
SN 22.94

“And what is agreed upon by the wise as existing in the world that I too say, ‘It exists’?

“Form that’s inconstant, stressful, subject to change is agreed upon by the wise as existing in the world, and I too say, ‘It exists.’

“Feeling that’s inconstant, stressful, subject to change is agreed upon by the wise as existing in the world, and I too say, ‘It exists.’

“Perception that’s inconstant, stressful, subject to change is agreed upon by the wise as existing in the world, and I too say, ‘It exists.’

“Fabrications that are inconstant, stressful, subject to change are agreed upon by the wise as existing in the world, and I too say, ‘They exist.’

“Consciousness that’s inconstant, stressful, subject to change is agreed upon by the wise as existing in the world, and I too say, ‘It exists.’2

“Monks, there is a world-phenomenon in the world that the Tathāgata directly awakens to, breaks through to. Directly awakening to & breaking through to that, he declares it, teaches it, describes it, sets it forth. He reveals it, explains it, makes it plain. And what is a world-phenomenon in the world that the Tathāgata directly awakens to, breaks through to, that—directly awakening to & breaking through to it—he declares, teaches, describes, sets forth, reveals, explains, makes plain?3

“Form is a world-phenomenon in the world that the Tathāgata directly awakens to, breaks through to. Directly awakening to & breaking through to that, he declares it, teaches it, describes it, sets it forth. He reveals it, explains it, makes it plain. Whoever—when that is being declared, taught, described, set forth, revealed, explained, & made plain by the Tathāgata—doesn’t know, doesn’t see, then what can I do for that fool, that run-of-the-mill person: blind, without eye-sight, not knowing, not seeing?
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN22_94.html


I remember tilt saying that was a bad translation and that the Pali doesn’t support “exist”. I’ll see if I can dig it out.
“Lust is a maker of signs. Aversion is a maker of signs. Delusion is a maker of signs.” MN 43

"Rooted in desire, friends, are all phenomena; originating in attention, are all phenomena”
— A. v. 106

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Re: Are Therevadins the true heretics?

Post by Ceisiwr » Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:25 pm

I’m wrong, it was Retro in the “great Nibbana debate”. He posted an alternative translation:


http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pit ... ggo-e.html
“Lust is a maker of signs. Aversion is a maker of signs. Delusion is a maker of signs.” MN 43

"Rooted in desire, friends, are all phenomena; originating in attention, are all phenomena”
— A. v. 106

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Re: Are Therevadins the true heretics?

Post by Ceisiwr » Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:09 pm

DNS wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:27 pm
SN 22.94

“And what is agreed upon by the wise as existing in the world that I too say, ‘It exists’?

“Form that’s inconstant, stressful, subject to change is agreed upon by the wise as existing in the world, and I too say, ‘It exists.’

“Feeling that’s inconstant, stressful, subject to change is agreed upon by the wise as existing in the world, and I too say, ‘It exists.’

“Perception that’s inconstant, stressful, subject to change is agreed upon by the wise as existing in the world, and I too say, ‘It exists.’

“Fabrications that are inconstant, stressful, subject to change are agreed upon by the wise as existing in the world, and I too say, ‘They exist.’

“Consciousness that’s inconstant, stressful, subject to change is agreed upon by the wise as existing in the world, and I too say, ‘It exists.’2

“Monks, there is a world-phenomenon in the world that the Tathāgata directly awakens to, breaks through to. Directly awakening to & breaking through to that, he declares it, teaches it, describes it, sets it forth. He reveals it, explains it, makes it plain. And what is a world-phenomenon in the world that the Tathāgata directly awakens to, breaks through to, that—directly awakening to & breaking through to it—he declares, teaches, describes, sets forth, reveals, explains, makes plain?3

“Form is a world-phenomenon in the world that the Tathāgata directly awakens to, breaks through to. Directly awakening to & breaking through to that, he declares it, teaches it, describes it, sets it forth. He reveals it, explains it, makes it plain. Whoever—when that is being declared, taught, described, set forth, revealed, explained, & made plain by the Tathāgata—doesn’t know, doesn’t see, then what can I do for that fool, that run-of-the-mill person: blind, without eye-sight, not knowing, not seeing?
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN22_94.html


Taking this sutta, agreeing that there is form isn’t the same as saying that form really exists.
“Lust is a maker of signs. Aversion is a maker of signs. Delusion is a maker of signs.” MN 43

"Rooted in desire, friends, are all phenomena; originating in attention, are all phenomena”
— A. v. 106

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Re: Are Therevadins the true heretics?

Post by SteRo » Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:18 pm

DNS wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:27 pm
SN 22.94

“And what is agreed upon by the wise as existing in the world that I too say, ‘It exists’?

“Form that’s inconstant, stressful, subject to change is agreed upon by the wise as existing in the world, and I too say, ‘It exists.’

“Feeling that’s inconstant, stressful, subject to change is agreed upon by the wise as existing in the world, and I too say, ‘It exists.’

“Perception that’s inconstant, stressful, subject to change is agreed upon by the wise as existing in the world, and I too say, ‘It exists.’

“Fabrications that are inconstant, stressful, subject to change are agreed upon by the wise as existing in the world, and I too say, ‘They exist.’

“Consciousness that’s inconstant, stressful, subject to change is agreed upon by the wise as existing in the world, and I too say, ‘It exists.’2

“Monks, there is a world-phenomenon in the world that the Tathāgata directly awakens to, breaks through to. Directly awakening to & breaking through to that, he declares it, teaches it, describes it, sets it forth. He reveals it, explains it, makes it plain. And what is a world-phenomenon in the world that the Tathāgata directly awakens to, breaks through to, that—directly awakening to & breaking through to it—he declares, teaches, describes, sets forth, reveals, explains, makes plain?3

“Form is a world-phenomenon in the world that the Tathāgata directly awakens to, breaks through to. Directly awakening to & breaking through to that, he declares it, teaches it, describes it, sets it forth. He reveals it, explains it, makes it plain. Whoever—when that is being declared, taught, described, set forth, revealed, explained, & made plain by the Tathāgata—doesn’t know, doesn’t see, then what can I do for that fool, that run-of-the-mill person: blind, without eye-sight, not knowing, not seeing?
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN22_94.html
DNS wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:39 pm
Does not exist, everything is illusion, does not apply. Everything exists and is permanent, does not apply.

SN 12.15

"'Everything exists': That is one extreme. 'Everything doesn't exist': That is a second extreme. Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle: From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.
At Sāvatthī. “Bhikkhus, I do not dispute with the world; rather, it is the world that disputes with me. A proponent of the Dhamma does not dispute with anyone in the world. Of that which the wise in the world agree upon as not existing, I too say that it does not exist. And of that which the wise in the world agree upon as existing, I too say that it exists
B. Bodhi comments on this intro to the Flowers Sutta SN22.94:
This portion of the sutta offers an important counterpoint to the message of the Kaccānagotta Sutta (12:15). Here the Buddha emphasizes that he does not reject all ontological propositions, but only those that transcend the bounds of possible experience. While the Kaccānagotta Sutta shows that the “middle teaching” excludes static, substantialist conceptions of existence and nonexistence, the present text shows that the same “middle teaching” can accommodate definite pronouncements about these ontological issues. The affirmation of the existence of the five aggregates, as impermanent processes, serves as a rejoinder to illusionist theories, which hold that the world lacks real being.

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Re: Are Therevadins the true heretics?

Post by DNS » Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:06 pm

SteRo wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:18 pm

B. Bodhi comments on this intro to the Flowers Sutta SN22.94:
The affirmation of the existence of the five aggregates, as impermanent processes, serves as a rejoinder to illusionist theories, which hold that the world lacks real being.
:thumbsup:

From wikipedia, Early Buddhist Schools article:
Etienne Lamotte divided the mainstream Buddhist schools into three main doctrinal types:[8]

The “personalists”, such as the Pudgalavādin Vātsīputrīyas and Saṃmittīyas
The “realists”, namely the Theravāda and Sarvāstivāda Ābhidharmikas
The “nominalists”, for instance, the Mahāsāṃghika Prajñaptivādins, and possibly non-Abhidharma Sthaviravadins.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Buddhist_schools

(Etienne Lamotte was a famous Indologist, Buddhologist.)

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Re: Are Therevadins the true heretics?

Post by Ceisiwr » Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:30 pm

DNS wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:06 pm
SteRo wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:18 pm

B. Bodhi comments on this intro to the Flowers Sutta SN22.94:
The affirmation of the existence of the five aggregates, as impermanent processes, serves as a rejoinder to illusionist theories, which hold that the world lacks real being.
:thumbsup:

From wikipedia, Early Buddhist Schools article:
Etienne Lamotte divided the mainstream Buddhist schools into three main doctrinal types:[8]

The “personalists”, such as the Pudgalavādin Vātsīputrīyas and Saṃmittīyas
The “realists”, namely the Theravāda and Sarvāstivāda Ābhidharmikas
The “nominalists”, for instance, the Mahāsāṃghika Prajñaptivādins, and possibly non-Abhidharma Sthaviravadins.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Buddhist_schools

(Etienne Lamotte was a famous Indologist, Buddhologist.)


I’m not claiming that the aggregates don’t exist. Neither do I claim that they have some real intrinsic essence. Agreeing with people when they say “there is a body” isn’t the same as saying “the body really exists”. Ven. Bodhi seems to be making a speculative claim that the world really exists. This is the opposite end of those who claim that the world is all illusion.
“Lust is a maker of signs. Aversion is a maker of signs. Delusion is a maker of signs.” MN 43

"Rooted in desire, friends, are all phenomena; originating in attention, are all phenomena”
— A. v. 106

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Re: Are Therevadins the true heretics?

Post by SteRo » Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:40 pm

Ceisiwr wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:30 pm
I’m not claiming that the aggregates don’t exist. Neither do I claim that they have some real intrinsic essence. Agreeing with people when they say “there is a body” isn’t the same as saying “the body really exists”.
Claim whatever you like.

Ceisiwr wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:30 pm
Ven. Bodhi seems to be making a speculative claim that the world really exists.
No. He says "Here the Buddha emphasizes that he does not reject all ontological propositions, but only those that transcend the bounds of possible experience."
Can't you experience the world? I can. Therefore the world exists.
And B. Boddhi says "the Kaccānagotta Sutta shows that the “middle teaching” excludes static, substantialist conceptions of existence and nonexistence"
That means: The world does not exist statically, does not exist substantially but since it is experienced it exists because that kind of existence does not "transcend the bounds of possible experience".
Ceisiwr wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:30 pm
This is the opposite end of those who claim that the world is all illusion.
It is not because the world isn't truly an illusion because it can be experienced with its functionality.

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Re: Are Therevadins the true heretics?

Post by Ceisiwr » Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:53 pm

SteRo


No. He says "Here the Buddha emphasizes that he does not reject all ontological propositions, but only those that transcend the bounds of possible experience."
Like claiming that the world or the aggregates really exist.
Can't you experience the world? I can. Therefore the world exists.
Yes, but that doesn’t mean it really really exists. Such metaphysical claims are the thicket of views. Instead the Buddha taught the Dhamma via the middle, between the extreme views of existence and non-existence. Sadly you seem stuck in terms of thinking of existence or non-existence.
And B. Boddhi says "the Kaccānagotta Sutta shows that the “middle teaching” excludes static, substantialist conceptions of existence and nonexistence"
If we take the aggregates these are descriptors of experience. They aren’t claims about what the world really is like. They don’t describe “things”
It is not because the world isn't truly an illusion because it can be experienced with its functionality.
Claiming the world or the aggregates truly exist, even if for a moment, is the opposite of illusionist theories.

Also note I‘m not claiming the world is an illusion, or doesn’t exist. Nor did the Buddha.


“Form is like a lump of foam;
feeling is like a bubble;
perception seems like a mirage;
volitions like a banana tree;
and consciousness like a magic trick:
so taught the Kinsman of the Sun.
“Lust is a maker of signs. Aversion is a maker of signs. Delusion is a maker of signs.” MN 43

"Rooted in desire, friends, are all phenomena; originating in attention, are all phenomena”
— A. v. 106

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Re: Are Therevadins the true heretics?

Post by Ceisiwr » Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:00 pm

“Thus, monks, a Tathagata does not conceive of a visible thing as apart from sight; he does not conceive of an unseen; he does not conceive of a 'thing-worth-seeing'; he does not conceive about a seer.”
“Lust is a maker of signs. Aversion is a maker of signs. Delusion is a maker of signs.” MN 43

"Rooted in desire, friends, are all phenomena; originating in attention, are all phenomena”
— A. v. 106

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Are Therevadins the true heretics?

Post by Ceisiwr » Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:05 pm

The affirmation of the existence of the five aggregates, as impermanent processes, serves as a rejoinder to illusionist theories, which hold that the world lacks real being
It seems Ven. Bodhi thinks there is a “thing” out there called form, it’s just for him it temporarily exists as opposed to eternally existing.


“Everything exists': That is one extreme. 'Everything doesn't exist': That is a second extreme.”

This can easily be modified to:

“The aggregates exist': That is one extreme. 'The aggregates do not exist': That is a second extreme.”

Or:

"Form exists': That is one extreme. 'Form doesn't exist': That is a second extreme.”

Or:

“Consciousness exists': That is one extreme. 'Consciousness doesn't exist': That is a second extreme.”
“Lust is a maker of signs. Aversion is a maker of signs. Delusion is a maker of signs.” MN 43

"Rooted in desire, friends, are all phenomena; originating in attention, are all phenomena”
— A. v. 106

SteRo
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Re: Are Therevadins the true heretics?

Post by SteRo » Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:36 pm

Ceisiwr wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:53 pm
Claiming the world or the aggregates truly exist, even if for a moment, is the opposite of illusionist theories.
But B. Bodhi hasn't claimed that "the aggregates truly exist". Just review the words quoted.

The world and the aggregates exist because they can be experienced. Paraphrasing B. Bodhi: What can't be experienced shouldn't be called 'to exist'.

Ceisiwr, it seems you have not realized yet the two suttas under discussion because you seem to display an obsession about the word 'exist'. But just stop that:
"'Everything exists': That is one extreme. 'Everything doesn't exist': That is a second extreme. Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle: From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

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