Are Therevadins the true heretics?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
char101
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Re: Are Therevadins the true heretics?

Post by char101 » Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:35 am

SteRo wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:07 am
Ceisiwr wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 11:00 pm
Thinking about this further, it might be ok to use the word illusion when describing the world if we accept that the Buddha said that perceptions are like a mirage. Perhaps it’s possible to claim that perceptions and the world are illusions without slipping into the metaphysics of non-existence?
The point is that 'illusion' in buddhism has been introduced as a simile not as a reality of things at face value. What has been intended as skillful means to undermine clinging, i.e. "like an illusion" has been miscontrued by ignorance as "being truly an illusion" which entails a complete negation of the phenomenon in question.
I agree with this, illusion is an allegory.
Form is like a glob of foam;
feeling, a bubble;
perception, a mirage;
fabrications, a banana tree;
consciousness, a magic trick —
this has been taught
by the Kinsman of the Sun.
However you observe them,
appropriately examine them,
they're empty, void
to whoever sees them
appropriately.

SN 22.95 Foam

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Are Therevadins the true heretics?

Post by Ceisiwr » Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:38 pm

SteRo wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:07 am
Ceisiwr wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 11:00 pm
Thinking about this further, it might be ok to use the word illusion when describing the world if we accept that the Buddha said that perceptions are like a mirage. Perhaps it’s possible to claim that perceptions and the world are illusions without slipping into the metaphysics of non-existence?
The point is that 'illusion' in buddhism has been introduced as a simile not as a reality of things at face value. What has been intended as skillful means to undermine clinging, i.e. "like an illusion" has been miscontrued by ignorance as "being truly an illusion" which entails a complete negation of the phenomenon in question.

My reading is that perceptions are like a mirage because they are misleading, in the sense of said objects being actually existing things out there in the world.
“Not taking up any views,
possessing good behaviour, endowed with vision,
having removed greed for sensual pleasures,
one never again comes back to the bed of a womb”
Sn 1.8

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Are Therevadins the true heretics?

Post by Ceisiwr » Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:40 pm

char101 wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:15 am
Ceisiwr wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:06 am
The central issue around all this is what we mean by “exists” and what did the Buddha mean by the word? Did he mean, actually exists (and so made a metaphysical claim about the world) or did he mean “exists” as a convention?
I don't see any issue in understanding it.
And what do the astute agree on as not existing, which I too say does not exist? Form that is permanent, everlasting, eternal, and imperishable.
...
And what do the astute agree on as existing, which I too say exists? Form that is impermanent, suffering, and perishable.
It doesn't say that form does not exist. It clearly say that form which is eternal does not exist. It is the same form, the problem is the interpretation. Wrong intepretation is avijja. Right interpretation is panna.

No one is claiming that “things” don’t exist. People here are claiming that “things” do exist.

The sutta goes on to say:


“Form is a temporal phenomenon in the world that the Realized One understands and comprehends. Then he explains, teaches, asserts, establishes, clarifies, analyzes, and reveals it.

...

Consciousness is a temporal phenomenon in the world that the Realized One understands and comprehends. Then he explains, teaches, asserts, establishes, clarifies, analyzes, and reveals it.”
“Not taking up any views,
possessing good behaviour, endowed with vision,
having removed greed for sensual pleasures,
one never again comes back to the bed of a womb”
Sn 1.8

SteRo
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Re: Are Therevadins the true heretics?

Post by SteRo » Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:22 pm

Ceisiwr wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:38 pm
SteRo wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:07 am
Ceisiwr wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 11:00 pm
Thinking about this further, it might be ok to use the word illusion when describing the world if we accept that the Buddha said that perceptions are like a mirage. Perhaps it’s possible to claim that perceptions and the world are illusions without slipping into the metaphysics of non-existence?
The point is that 'illusion' in buddhism has been introduced as a simile not as a reality of things at face value. What has been intended as skillful means to undermine clinging, i.e. "like an illusion" has been miscontrued by ignorance as "being truly an illusion" which entails a complete negation of the phenomenon in question.

My reading is that perceptions are like a mirage because they are misleading, in the sense of said objects being actually existing things out there in the world.
It's difficult to express what "like an illusion" actually means. Using the term 'exist' one easily slips into the misleading dichotomy 'existence vs non-existence' because language only knows dichotomies. I doubt that Theravada has adequate teachings about that topic.

Pulsar
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Re: Are Therevadins the true heretics?

Post by Pulsar » Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:42 pm

error..
Last edited by Pulsar on Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Pulsar
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Re: Are Therevadins the true heretics?

Post by Pulsar » Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:43 pm

Ceisiwer writes
"My reading is that perceptions are like a mirage because they are misleading"
you are correct 'Phena sutta" does not lie.
Form is like a lump of foam;
feeling is like a bubble;
perception seems like a mirage;
volitions like a banana tree;
and consciousness like a magic trick:
so taught the Kinsman of the Sun. :candle:

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Re: Are Therevadins the true heretics?

Post by Pulsar » Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:52 pm

SteRo wrote
"Using the term 'exist' one easily slips into the misleading dichotomy 'existence vs non-existence' because language only knows dichotomies. I doubt that Theravada has adequate teachings about that topic.
You are justified in that doubt. The problem is in resorting to language, one is forced into a dichotomy,
dichotomy is lost in 4th satipatthana or 4th Jhana, and that experience cannot be expressed in
language.
Remember "Atammayata"? "Yena yena hi mannanti tato tam hoti annatha"
:candle:

Pulsar
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Re: Are Therevadins the true heretics?

Post by Pulsar » Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:34 pm

Perezoso wrote  
The Theravadins proved that the earth is not the result of kamma (Kv 7.7). Any argument against the existence of something that is independent of beings, their minds and their kamma is quite fruitless.
This is true. Buddha's teaching applies to things arisen due to contingency, his concern was with the suffering embedded in the human condition, and his teaching undoes the conditions that lead to human suffering.
 
The thing with Mahayana is, it went too far metaphysically, it applied Paticca samuppada to plants and germination e.g SatisambaSutra "Discourse of the young rice plant" Paticca samuppada is not about how mountains come to be, or how grape vines grow and bear seeds.
It is solely about the human condition.
There are many good things written in Mahayana when it comes to meditation. Reason being there is no distinction between Theravada and Mahayana when it comes to meditation. All buddhist sects have 37 factors of awakening as a foundation, we should not ignore this. :candle:

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Are Therevadins the true heretics?

Post by Ceisiwr » Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:58 pm

Pulsar

This is true. Buddha's teaching applies to things arisen due to contingency, his concern was with the suffering embedded in the human condition, and his teaching undoes the conditions that lead to human suffering.
The question then arises, how do phenomena rise and fall?

Mind precedes all phenomena. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought.
“Not taking up any views,
possessing good behaviour, endowed with vision,
having removed greed for sensual pleasures,
one never again comes back to the bed of a womb”
Sn 1.8

SteRo
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Re: Are Therevadins the true heretics?

Post by SteRo » Fri Jan 17, 2020 7:31 pm

Ceisiwr wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:58 pm
Pulsar

This is true. Buddha's teaching applies to things arisen due to contingency, his concern was with the suffering embedded in the human condition, and his teaching undoes the conditions that lead to human suffering.
The question then arises, how do phenomena rise and fall?
"How" seems to introduce a speculative question asking for a mechanism. Experience, i.e. the aggregates, display the arising of phenomena and display the cessation of phenomena depending on conditions.

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Are Therevadins the true heretics?

Post by Ceisiwr » Fri Jan 17, 2020 7:42 pm

SteRo wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 7:31 pm
Ceisiwr wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:58 pm
Pulsar

This is true. Buddha's teaching applies to things arisen due to contingency, his concern was with the suffering embedded in the human condition, and his teaching undoes the conditions that lead to human suffering.
The question then arises, how do phenomena rise and fall?
"How" seems to introduce a speculative question asking for a mechanism. Experience, i.e. the aggregates, display the arising of phenomena and display the cessation of phenomena depending on conditions.

The Buddha addressed the question. Dependent origination describes the rise and fall of phenomena, of experience. The aggregates are also phenomena, which is why with enough practice we can witness the origination and cessation of them.


“Whenever he sees with insight the rise and fall of the aggregates, he is full of joy and happiness. To the discerning one this reflects the Deathless.”


“Such is material form, such is its arising, such is its passing away; such is feeling... such is perception... such are the mental formations... such is consciousness, such is its arising, such is its passing away': for him who knows this, for him who sees this, the destruction of the cankers comes about.” Upanisaa Sutta
“Not taking up any views,
possessing good behaviour, endowed with vision,
having removed greed for sensual pleasures,
one never again comes back to the bed of a womb”
Sn 1.8

SteRo
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Re: Are Therevadins the true heretics?

Post by SteRo » Fri Jan 17, 2020 7:56 pm

Ceisiwr wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 7:42 pm
SteRo wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 7:31 pm
Ceisiwr wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:58 pm
Pulsar




The question then arises, how do phenomena rise and fall?
"How" seems to introduce a speculative question asking for a mechanism. Experience, i.e. the aggregates, display the arising of phenomena and display the cessation of phenomena depending on conditions.

The Buddha addressed the question. Dependent origination describes the rise and fall of phenomena, of experience. The aggregates are also phenomena, which is why with enough practice we can witness the origination and cessation of them.


“Whenever he sees with insight the rise and fall of the aggregates, he is full of joy and happiness. To the discerning one this reflects the Deathless.”


“Such is material form, such is its arising, such is its passing away; such is feeling... such is perception... such are the mental formations... such is consciousness, such is its arising, such is its passing away': for him who knows this, for him who sees this, the destruction of the cankers comes about.” Upanisaa Sutta
That's fine. However I have encountered in this forum the view that dependent origination only refers to the arising of dukkha. And looking at the sutta that view seems to be supported.
So in case of an arahant dependent origination is not applicable. But since an arahant still is able to live in this world, is able to eat and drink etc. there must be the arising and cessation of phenomena in her/his sphere of experience, too. But liberated from dukkha dependent origination isn't applicable in case of the arahant.

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Are Therevadins the true heretics?

Post by Ceisiwr » Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:05 pm

SteRo
That's fine. However I have encountered in this forum the view that dependent origination only refers to the arising of dukkha. And looking at the sutta that view seems to be supported.
So in case of an arahant dependent origination is not applicable. But since an arahant still is able to live in this world, is able to eat and drink etc. there must be the arising and cessation of phenomena in her/his sphere of experience, too. But liberated from dukkha dependent origination isn't applicable in case of the arahant.
There are two forms of Nibbana. Whilst still alive the Buddha sees forms etc and uses the conventions of the world, but he is no longer fooled by them. The same for Arahants. Upon death, the aggregates then all grow cold and cease.
“Not taking up any views,
possessing good behaviour, endowed with vision,
having removed greed for sensual pleasures,
one never again comes back to the bed of a womb”
Sn 1.8

SteRo
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Re: Are Therevadins the true heretics?

Post by SteRo » Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:15 pm

Ceisiwr wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:05 pm
SteRo
That's fine. However I have encountered in this forum the view that dependent origination only refers to the arising of dukkha. And looking at the sutta that view seems to be supported.
So in case of an arahant dependent origination is not applicable. But since an arahant still is able to live in this world, is able to eat and drink etc. there must be the arising and cessation of phenomena in her/his sphere of experience, too. But liberated from dukkha dependent origination isn't applicable in case of the arahant.
There are two forms of Nibbana. Whilst still alive the Buddha sees forms etc and uses the conventions of the world, but he is no longer fooled by them. The same for Arahants. Upon death, the aggregates then all grow cold and cease.
Ok. Then "Whilst still alive" the arahant still is subject to ignorance in the context of the arising and cessation of phenomena but no longer subject to ignorance as the root cause of dukkha. So there are actually two kinds of dependent origination: the standard one that leads to dukkha and the arahant's dependent arising that causes the arising and cessation of phenomena but lacks the factors that are necessary for dukkha. That's ok for me since from my perspective there are two kinds of ignorance and the arahant that is alive still is subject to ignorance but not to that ignorance that causes dukkha.

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Are Therevadins the true heretics?

Post by Ceisiwr » Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:33 pm

SteRo wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:15 pm
Ceisiwr wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:05 pm
SteRo
That's fine. However I have encountered in this forum the view that dependent origination only refers to the arising of dukkha. And looking at the sutta that view seems to be supported.
So in case of an arahant dependent origination is not applicable. But since an arahant still is able to live in this world, is able to eat and drink etc. there must be the arising and cessation of phenomena in her/his sphere of experience, too. But liberated from dukkha dependent origination isn't applicable in case of the arahant.
There are two forms of Nibbana. Whilst still alive the Buddha sees forms etc and uses the conventions of the world, but he is no longer fooled by them. The same for Arahants. Upon death, the aggregates then all grow cold and cease.
Ok. Then "Whilst still alive" the arahant still is subject to ignorance in the context of the arising and cessation of phenomena but no longer subject to ignorance as the root cause of dukkha. So there are actually two kinds of dependent origination: the standard one that leads to dukkha and the arahant's dependent arising that causes the arising and cessation of phenomena but lacks the factors that are necessary for dukkha. That's ok for me since from my perspective there are two kinds of ignorance and the arahant that is alive still is subject to ignorance but not to that ignorance that causes dukkha.

No, its due to old kamma not present ignorance:

"The eye [ear, nose tongue, body (touch), mind],[1] monks, is to be regarded as old kamma, brought into existence and created by volition,[2] forming a basis for feeling.[3] This, monks, is called 'old kamma."


However, the Buddha's experience is different to that of the worldly person:
""Monks, whatsoever in the world with its gods, Maras and Brahmas, among the progeny consisting of recluses and brahmins, gods and men — whatsoever is seen, heard, sensed,1 cognized, attained, sought after and pondered over by the mind all that do I know. Monks, whatsoever in the world .........of gods and men — whatsoever is seen, .........by the mind — that have I fully understood; all that is known to the Tathagata,2 but the Tathagata has not taken his stand upon it.

If I were to say : 'Monks, whatsoever in the world . . . .of gods and men — whatsoever is seen .....by the mind — all that I do not know' — it would be a falsehood in me.1 If I were to say : 'I both know it and know it not' - that too would be a falsehood in me. If I were to say : 'I neither know it nor am ignorant of it' — it would be a fault in me.

Thus, monks, a Tathagata does not conceive of a visible thing as apart from sight; he does not conceive of an unseen; he does not conceive of a 'thing-worth-seeing'; he does not conceive about a seer.

He does not conceive of an audible thing as apart from hearing; he does not conceive of an unheard; he does not conceive of a 'thing-worth—hearing'; he does not conceive about a hearer.

He does not conceive of a thing to be sensed as apart from sensation; he does not conceive of an unsensed; he does not conceive of a 'thing-worth—sensing'; he does not conceive about one who senses.

He does not conceive of a cognizable thing as apart from cognition; he does not conceive of an uncognized; he does not conceive of a 'thing-worth—cognizing'; he does not conceive about one who cognizes.


Thus, monks, the Tathagata being such-like in regard to all phenomena seen, heard, sensed and cognized, is 'Such'. Moreover, than he who is 'Such', there is none other greater or more excellent, I declare.

Whatever is seen, heard, sensed or clung to,
is esteemed as truth by other folk,
Midst those who are entrenched in their own views’
being 'Such' I hold none as true or false."
Kalakarama Sutta
“Not taking up any views,
possessing good behaviour, endowed with vision,
having removed greed for sensual pleasures,
one never again comes back to the bed of a womb”
Sn 1.8

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