Are Therevadins the true heretics?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Perezoso
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Are Therevadins the true heretics?

Post by Perezoso »

From reading about Buddhism it seems like all Buddhism explains that the Buddha taught all is imaginary or mind or consciousness, extremely similar, if only in this respect, to it's parent religion, Hinduism.

Both religions teach that all is consciousness or mind and only Theravada stands alone in stating otherwise.

If not that, some say he taught all is unreal or non existent in some other way. Again only Theravada teach otherwise.

I challenge the Theravadins on this forum to provide proof that the Buddha taught that anything like matter exists or that everything is not imaginary, explicitly or even strongly implicitly.

If this cannot be done, and the idea that matter exists is sectarian, derived purely from extra canonical works, does this mean that the Theravada school is heretical with respect to the Pali Canon? Any realism being utterly foreign; a Theravada invented interloper in the pure idealism of the Pali Canon?
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suriyopama
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Re: Are Therevadins the true heretics?

Post by suriyopama »

Perezoso wrote: Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:29 pm From reading about Buddhism ...
Time to start practicing, to see for yourself? :smile:
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cappuccino
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Re: Are Therevadins the true heretics?

Post by cappuccino »

Perezoso wrote: ? ?
I don't know what you're asking
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Re: Are Therevadins the true heretics?

Post by befriend »

All is unreal? I think you mean the thought of an autonomous self is the mother of all afflictive states and that everything we think of as you, me, chair, cat is delusion this illusion is based on thought everyone thing is not self and dependently arises coming into being by causes and conditions. Non self or emptiness doesn't mean non existent read what the Dalai Lama has to say about it.
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Re: Are Therevadins the true heretics?

Post by DNS »

If you look at the moon and then turn away, sorry to disappoint you, but the moon is still there. :tongue:

Humans have been around for about 3 to 5 million years. Prior to that, there was life on earth, volcanoes, hurricanes, tornadoes, animals evolving; a human consciousness did not need to be there to perceive it.
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Re: Are Therevadins the true heretics?

Post by befriend »

Annihilationism is heretical.
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SDC
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Re: Are Therevadins the true heretics?

Post by SDC »

Perezoso wrote: Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:29 pm From reading about Buddhism it seems...
You should've read more lol
char101
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Re: Are Therevadins the true heretics?

Post by char101 »

Everyone has different interpretations on the meaning of sutta. Before trying to prove to the world that your view is right, you need to prove to yourself first that your view is right. That is, by direct realization. Expressing views and opinions is fine, but thinking that only this is right, others are wrong, is premature.
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Re: Are Therevadins the true heretics?

Post by Pondera »

The Buddha taught 6 sense faculties - 6 types of sensual consciousness - and six types of sense objects.

He also taught consciousness kasina. As David said, the moon exists whether you are looking at it or not.

Sense objects exist independently of the mind. When sense consciousness connects sense objects with sense faculties we have what the Buddha taught as “contact” (ie. sense perception).

When sense objects are beyond the range of sense faculties and there is no corresponding sense consciousness the objects do not disappear - they exist without any “contact”.

This is the meaning of the state of “neither perception nor non perception”. Consciousness is not present in this state and therefore there is no contact. However the practitioner is still aware that things exist externally to him.

Finally when all contact has ceased via the elimination of sense consciousness we have Unbinding or the cessation of perception and feeling. Is it your argument that for a person experiencing Nibbana the world is extinguished?
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DooDoot
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Re: Are Therevadins the true heretics?

Post by DooDoot »

Perezoso wrote: Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:29 pmFrom reading about Buddhism it seems like all Buddhism explains that the Buddha taught all is imaginary or mind or consciousness
Hi P. The Buddha didn't teach this.
Perezoso wrote: Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:29 pmextremely similar, if only in this respect, to it's parent religion, Hinduism.
Hinduism didn't exist before Buddhism. Before Buddhism, the old religion we call "Brahmanism". Also, you should not call "Brahmanism" the Buddha's parent.
Perezoso wrote: Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:29 pmI challenge the Theravadins on this forum to provide proof that the Buddha taught that anything like matter exists or that everything is not imaginary, explicitly or even strongly implicitly.
Below:
What, bhikkhu, is the earth element? The earth element may be either internal or external. What is the internal earth element? Whatever internally, belonging to oneself, is solid, solidified, and clung-to, that is, head-hairs, body-hairs, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, sinews, bones, bone-marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, diaphragm, spleen, lungs, intestines, mesentery, contents of the stomach, feces, or whatever else internally, belonging to oneself, is solid, solidified, and clung-to: this is called the internal earth element. Now both the internal earth element and the external earth element are simply earth element.

https://suttacentral.net/mn140/en/bodhi
Below:
It would be better for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person to hold to the body composed of the four great elements, rather than the mind, as the self. Why is that? Because this body composed of the four great elements is seen standing for a year, two years, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, a hundred years or more. But what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Below is the strongest, which describes the cessation of consciousness in the living being:
"What is the difference between one who is dead, who has completed his time, and a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling?"

"In the case of the one who is dead, who has completed his time, his bodily fabrications [breathing] have ceased & subsided, his verbal fabrications [thoughts] ... his mental fabrications [perceptions & feelings] have ceased & subsided, his vitality is exhausted, his heat subsided, & his faculties are scattered.

But in the case of a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling, his bodily fabrications have ceased & subsided, his verbal fabrications ... his mental fabrications have ceased & subsided, his vitality is not exhausted, his heat has not subsided & his [physical sense organ] faculties are exceptionally clear [clean]. This is the difference between one who is dead, who has completed his time, and a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
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Re: Are Therevadins the true heretics?

Post by SteRo »

Perezoso wrote: Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:29 pm From reading about Buddhism it seems like all Buddhism explains that the Buddha taught all is imaginary or mind or consciousness, ...
It seems that either you have not read enough and/or you have read unqualified texts about it and/or you have misconstrued what you have read.
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Re: Are Therevadins the true heretics?

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

What is matter? Never mind.
What is mind? No matter.
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Re: Are Therevadins the true heretics?

Post by Zom »

I challenge the Theravadins on this forum to provide proof that the Buddha taught that anything like matter exists or that everything is not imaginary, explicitly or even strongly implicitly.
Here, bhikkhus, some misguided men learn the Dhamma—discourses, stanzas, expositions, verses, exclamations, sayings, birth stories, marvels, and answers to questions—but having learned the Dhamma, they do not examine the meaning of those teachings with wisdom. Not examining the meaning of those teachings with wisdom, they do not gain a reflective acceptance of them. Instead they learn the Dhamma only for the sake of criticising others and for winning in debates, and they do not experience the good for the sake of which they learned the Dhamma. Those teachings, being wrongly grasped by them, conduce to their harm and suffering for a long time.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Are Therevadins the true heretics?

Post by Ceisiwr »

If the world really exists or not is a speculative question. The Buddha teaches the Dhamma via the middle, between the extremes of existence or non-existence.
"Analysis and synthesis are praised by the wise,
liberation in the Sāsana comes from analysis and synthesis;
the purpose of the method of analysis and synthesis is the ultimate"


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Nicolas
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Re: Are Therevadins the true heretics?

Post by Nicolas »

These quotes from the Pali Canon may be of use:
Puppha Sutta (SN 22.94) wrote: Of that which the wise in the world agree upon as not existing, I too say that it does not exist. And of that which the wise in the world agree upon as existing, I too say that it exists.

And what is it, bhikkhus, that the wise in the world agree upon as not existing, of which I too say that it does not exist? Form that is permanent, stable, eternal, not subject to change: this the wise in the world agree upon as not existing, and I too say that it does not exist.
[...]
And what is it, bhikkhus, that the wise in the world agree upon as existing, of which I too say that it exists? Form that is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change: this the wise in the world agree upon as existing, and I too say that it exists.

[Same with the other aggregates: feeling, perception, volitional formations, consciousness.]
Pheṇapiṇḍūpama Sutta (SN 22.95) wrote: Form is like a lump of foam,
Feeling like a water bubble;
Perception is like a mirage,
Volitions like a plantain trunk,
And consciousness like an illusion,
So explained the Kinsman of the Sun.

However one may ponder it
And carefully investigate it,
It appears but hollow and void
When one views it carefully.

[...]

Such is this continuum,
This illusion, beguiler of fools.
It is taught to be a murderer;
Here no substance can be found.
Kaccānagotta Sutta (SN 12.15) wrote: This world, Kaccana, for the most part depends upon a duality—upon the notion of existence and the notion of nonexistence. But for one who sees the origin of the world as it really is with correct wisdom, there is no notion of nonexistence in regard to the world. And for one who sees the cessation of the world as it really is with correct wisdom, there is no notion of existence in regard to the world.

[...]

‘All exists’: Kaccana, this is one extreme. ‘All does not exist’: this is the second extreme. Without veering towards either of these extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma by the middle: [dependent origination].
(The latter can also be found in the Channa Sutta (SN 22.90), for a neat inclusion of all quotes close to each other in the same book: SN 22.)
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