Was Sariputta a liar? (jhāna, kāya, sukha contradictions in Theravada history)

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frank k
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Was Sariputta a liar? (jhāna, kāya, sukha contradictions in Theravada history)

Post by frank k » Sun Jan 12, 2020 1:15 pm

Is there a way to cross post to Abhidhamma and early buddhism sub forums?

https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... ukha.html

excerpt:

Sariputta was a liar (jhāna, kāya, sukha contradictions in Theravada history)
Sariputta was a liar.
At least that's the conclusion one would have to draw, if we believe what he said in the pali suttas was accurate, and we also believe the Theravada account that Abhidhamma was taught by the Buddha to Sariputta, and that Sariputta taught Abhidhamma to his 500 disciples which was the same teaching as we have today.


Sariputta in the EBT pali sutta
AN 5.176 (Sariputta explains first jhāna formula’s vivekajam pīti-sukham)
(these 5 things not present in pīti/rapture)
(1. Kāma’s dukkha & domanassa)
(2. Kāma’s sukha & somanassa)
(3. A-kusala dukkha & domanassa)
(4. A-kusala sukha & somanassa)
(5. Kusala dukkha & domanassa)
Mp (Te Cmy) says this pīti is from first and second jhāna
www.lucid24.org/sted : ☸Lucid24.org🐘 STED definitions
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: Sariputta was a liar (jhāna, kāya, sukha contradictions in Theravada history)

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta » Sun Jan 12, 2020 3:38 pm

.


Buddha said:
    • There is nothing, Sāriputta, that you’ve done by way of body or speech that I would criticize.
      Sāriputta,
      • you are astute.
      • You have
        • great wisdom,
        • widespread wisdom,
        • laughing wisdom,
        • swift wisdom,
        • sharp wisdom,
        • penetrating wisdom.
      "Sāriputta rightly keeps rolling the supreme Wheel of Dhamma that was rolled forth by me." ~ sn8.7 https://suttacentral.net/sn8.7/en/sujato
------------------------------



    • Similarly, O monks,
      • is Sariputta endowed with five qualities and
      • rightly turns the supreme Wheel of Dhamma, even as I have turned it.
      And this Wheel cannot be overturned
      • by ascetics, or priests,
      • by deities or Brahma,
      • nor by anyone else in the world.
      What are those five qualities?
      Sariputta, O monks,
      1. knows what is beneficial,
      2. knows the Teaching,
      3. knows the right measure,
      4. knows the right time and
      5. knows the assembly (he is to address).

      — Anguttara Nikaya, V. 132


Similarly, O' DW,
.


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Srilankaputra
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Re: Sariputta was a liar (jhāna, kāya, sukha contradictions in Theravada history)

Post by Srilankaputra » Sun Jan 12, 2020 4:34 pm

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 3:38 pm
.


Buddha said:
    • There is nothing, Sāriputta, that you’ve done by way of body or speech that I would criticize.
      Sāriputta,
      • you are astute.
      • You have
        • great wisdom,
        • widespread wisdom,
        • laughing wisdom,
        • swift wisdom,
        • sharp wisdom,
        • penetrating wisdom.
      "Sāriputta rightly keeps rolling the supreme Wheel of Dhamma that was rolled forth by me." ~ sn8.7 https://suttacentral.net/sn8.7/en/sujato
------------------------------



    • Similarly, O monks,
      • is Sariputta endowed with five qualities and
      • rightly turns the supreme Wheel of Dhamma, even as I have turned it.
      And this Wheel cannot be overturned
      • by ascetics, or priests,
      • by deities or Brahma,
      • nor by anyone else in the world.
      What are those five qualities?
      Sariputta, O monks,
      1. knows what is beneficial,
      2. knows the Teaching,
      3. knows the right measure,
      4. knows the right time and
      5. knows the assembly (he is to address).

      — Anguttara Nikaya, V. 132


Similarly, O' DW,
:anjali:
O seeing one,we for refuge go to thee!
O mighty sage do thou our teacher be!

Paccuppannañca yo dhammaṃ,
Tattha tattha vipassati

“Yato yato mano nivāraye,
Na dukkhameti naṃ tato tato;
Sa sabbato mano nivāraye,
Sa sabbato dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

SarathW
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Re: Was Sariputta a liar? (jhāna, kāya, sukha contradictions in Theravada history)

Post by SarathW » Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:02 pm

We have to do the walking.
Buddha and Arahant give only the map.
If we take the map as the destination it is our fault.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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DooDoot
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Re: Sariputta was a liar (jhāna, kāya, sukha contradictions in Theravada history)

Post by DooDoot » Sun Jan 12, 2020 11:21 pm

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 3:38 pm

.Buddha said:

"Sāriputta rightly keeps rolling the supreme Wheel of Dhamma that was rolled forth by me."

:goodpost:
frank k wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 1:15 pm
Sariputta was a liar (jhāna, kāya, sukha contradictions in Theravada history)
Sariputta was a liar.
:shock: :? :|
They understand: ‘It’s impossible for a person accomplished in view to cause a schism in the Saṅgha.

‘Aṭṭhānametaṃ anavakāso yaṃ diṭṭhisampanno puggalo saṅghaṃ bhindeyya, netaṃ ṭhānaṃ vijjatī’ti pajānāti;

But it’s possible for an ordinary person to cause a schism in the Saṅgha.’

‘ṭhānañca kho etaṃ vijjati yaṃ puthujjano saṅghaṃ bhindeyya, ṭhānametaṃ vijjatī’ti pajānāti.

https://suttacentral.net/mn115/en/sujato
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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manas
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Re: Was Sariputta a liar? (jhāna, kāya, sukha contradictions in Theravada history)

Post by manas » Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:33 pm

I think whoever wrote that 'excerpt' (that paragraph quoted within the OP, I'd rather not repeat it) should be more careful with their words. I am not, of course, presuming anyone has a negative mindset here, just that that 'excerpt' is badly worded; if there are doubts, there are better ways in which to express them, imho.

I'm currently reading through the Sutta Nipāta, and came across a certain sutta just today (link below). Although the situation is obviously quite different here, this sutta should, perhaps, encourage one to word one's doubts with care? Just a thought.

https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/KN/S ... p3_10.html :shock:

:anjali:
“It would be better for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person to hold to the body composed of the four great elements, rather than the mind, as the self. Why is that? Because this body composed of the four great elements is seen standing for a year, two years, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, a hundred years or more. But what’s called ‘mind,’ ‘intellect,’ or ‘consciousness’ by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another." - SN 12:61 (excerpt)

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