What is stilling physical processes ?

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sentinel
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What is stilling physical processes ?

Post by sentinel » Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:41 pm

What does it mean stilling of physical processes ?
https://suttacentral.net/sn54.1/en/sujato

They practice like this: ‘I’ll breathe in stilling physical processes.’ They practice like this: ‘I’ll breathe out stilling physical processes.’
‘passambhayaṃ kāyasaṅkhāraṃ assasissāmī’ti sikkhati, ‘passambhayaṃ kāyasaṅkhāraṃ passasissāmī’ti sikkhati.


https://suttacentral.net/mn118/en/sujato

They practice breathing in stilling the body’s motion. They practice breathing out stilling the body’s motion.
‘passambhayaṃ kāyasaṅkhāraṃ assasissāmī’ti sikkhati, ‘passambhayaṃ kāyasaṅkhāraṃ passasissāmī’ti sikkhati.
No way is the way

frank k
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Re: What is stilling physical processes ?

Post by frank k » Sun Jan 12, 2020 1:28 pm

http://lucid24.org/sted/16aps/index.html

see these two articles:
The Buddha's commentary on 16 APS:
EBT compliant commentary for 16 APS: from non-EBT sources
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sentinel
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Re: What is stilling physical processes ?

Post by sentinel » Sun Jan 12, 2020 1:52 pm

frank k wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 1:28 pm
http://lucid24.org/sted/16aps/index.html

see these two articles:
The Buddha's commentary on 16 APS:
EBT compliant commentary for 16 APS: from non-EBT sources
Hi Frank , what is step 4 pacifying body ?
Does it similar to 4th jhana stopping of breathing ?
No way is the way

auto
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Re: What is stilling physical processes ?

Post by auto » Sun Jan 12, 2020 2:06 pm

you need be able to make difference if the sensation is mind(citta) or is it body(kaya)

https://suttacentral.net/sn54.13/en/sujato wrote: When the mind is full of rapture, the body and mind become tranquil.
Pītimanassa kāyopi passambhati, cittampi passambhati.
when rapture is of mind then both body and mind are tranquil. Rapture of mind is a sign for body and citta being tranquil.
https://suttacentral.net/sn54.13/en/sujato wrote: When the body is tranquil and one feels bliss, the mind becomes immersed in samādhi.
Passaddhakāyassa sukhino cittaṃ samādhiyati.
when body is tranquil and citta is pleasant feeling, then it is samadhi.
https://suttacentral.net/sn54.13/en/sujato wrote: They closely watch over that mind immersed in samādhi.
So tathāsamāhitaṃ cittaṃ sādhukaṃ ajjhupekkhitā hoti.
'tranquil body and pleasant citta'(samadhi) mind can be seen through. Perhaps its what mean luminous and is upekkha.

sentinel
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Re: What is stilling physical processes ?

Post by sentinel » Sun Jan 12, 2020 2:20 pm

auto wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 2:06 pm
...
passambhayaṃ kāyasaṅkhāraṃ meaning ?
No way is the way

auto
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Re: What is stilling physical processes ?

Post by auto » Sun Jan 12, 2020 2:55 pm

sentinel wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 2:20 pm
auto wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 2:06 pm
...
passambhayaṃ kāyasaṅkhāraṃ meaning ?
*guessing here:
stilling body makers, I guess these are sexual urges, stilling them with being aware of breathing instead of kāmarāga.

santa100
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Re: What is stilling physical processes ?

Post by santa100 » Sun Jan 12, 2020 5:11 pm

sentinel wrote:What does it mean stilling of physical processes ?
Ven. Bodhi's version:
Breathing in long, he understands: ‘I breathe in long’; or breathing out long, he understands: ‘I breathe out long.’ Breathing in short, he understands: ‘I breathe in short’; or breathing out short, he understands: ‘I breathe out short.’ He trains thus: ‘I shall breathe in experiencing the whole body [of breath]’; he trains thus: ‘I shall breathe out experiencing the whole body [of breath].’ He trains thus: ‘I shall breathe in tranquillising the bodily formation’; he trains thus: ‘I shall breathe out tranquillising the bodily formation.
And note citing Comy's explanation:
The 'bodily formation' (kayasankhara) is defined as in-and-out breathing at MN 44.13 (I 301) and SN 41:6 (IV 293). Thus, as Ps explains, with the successful development of this practice, the meditator's breathing becomes increasingly more quiet, tranquil, and peaceful.

frank k
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Re: What is stilling physical processes ?

Post by frank k » Sun Jan 12, 2020 6:16 pm

sentinel wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 1:52 pm
frank k wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 1:28 pm
http://lucid24.org/sted/16aps/index.html

see these two articles:
The Buddha's commentary on 16 APS:
EBT compliant commentary for 16 APS: from non-EBT sources
Hi Frank , what is step 4 pacifying body ?
Does it similar to 4th jhana stopping of breathing ?
Did you read those 2 articles? they quote sutta passages and explain.
step 4 of 16APS is pacifying (passaddhi-sambojjhanga) kaya-sankhara (bodily co-doings), not body.

If you read another article (from that same page) with KN Ps translation of their 16APS commentary, it has some nice detail not in the suttas. That is, the bodily co-doings are not just the in breath and out breath, they also cover posture and shape with spatial dimension. So rather than think of breath as a tiny one dimensional point at your nostrils (as late Theravada tradition teaches), the in breath and out breath has the same spatial dimensions as a human body, with an emphasis on the wind element (of the 4 elements).
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DooDoot
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Re: What is stilling physical processes ?

Post by DooDoot » Sun Jan 12, 2020 11:16 pm

sentinel wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:41 pm
What does it mean stilling of physical processes ?
https://suttacentral.net/sn54.1/en/sujato

They practice like this: ‘I’ll breathe in stilling physical processes.’ They practice like this: ‘I’ll breathe out stilling physical processes.’

‘passambhayaṃ kāyasaṅkhāraṃ assasissāmī’ti sikkhati, ‘passambhayaṃ kāyasaṅkhāraṃ passasissāmī’ti sikkhati.
The translation above appears illogical. How can the breathing [or, otherwise, the body] be "stilled" while breathing in & out?

:rolleye:
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SarathW
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Re: What is stilling physical processes ?

Post by SarathW » Mon Jan 13, 2020 12:23 am

santa100 wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 5:11 pm
sentinel wrote:What does it mean stilling of physical processes ?
Ven. Bodhi's version:
Breathing in long, he understands: ‘I breathe in long’; or breathing out long, he understands: ‘I breathe out long.’ Breathing in short, he understands: ‘I breathe in short’; or breathing out short, he understands: ‘I breathe out short.’ He trains thus: ‘I shall breathe in experiencing the whole body [of breath]’; he trains thus: ‘I shall breathe out experiencing the whole body [of breath].’ He trains thus: ‘I shall breathe in tranquillising the bodily formation’; he trains thus: ‘I shall breathe out tranquillising the bodily formation.
And note citing Comy's explanation:
The 'bodily formation' (kayasankhara) is defined as in-and-out breathing at MN 44.13 (I 301) and SN 41:6 (IV 293). Thus, as Ps explains, with the successful development of this practice, the meditator's breathing becomes increasingly more quiet, tranquil, and peaceful.
:goodpost:
It appears to me this is the first Jhana state because the meditator still has the Vitakka and Vicara, Pithy, Sukha, and Ekagata.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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DooDoot
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Re: What is stilling physical processes ?

Post by DooDoot » Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:44 am

SarathW wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 12:23 am
It appears to me this is the first Jhana state because the meditator still has the Vitakka and Vicara, Piti, Sukha, and Ekaggta.
If the breath is experienced coming in & out, there is no ekaggata. No breathing in jhana.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

char101
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Re: What is stilling physical processes ?

Post by char101 » Mon Jan 13, 2020 2:19 am

From Anapana Dipani by Ven. Ledi Sayadaw:
When the beginning, middle, and end of the out and in-breaths have been
clearly perceived, if the rough and coarse out and in-breaths do not become
automatically calmed and allayed to the point of disappearance then
, in
accordance with the text of the fourth section of the first tetrad of the Pāḷi
Text, wherein it is said, “Passambhayaṃ kāyasaṅknāraṃ assasissāmī’ti sikkhati,
passambhayaṃ kāyasaṅkhāraṃ passasissāmī’ti sikkhati,
a special and additional
endeavour must be made to make them more and more subtle and the
out-breath and in-breath must be released with the resolution to make such
an endeavour
. The process must not be left unmindfully to take its own
course. In the method given in the Commentary, however, it is stated that
the out and in-breaths become calmed down and allayed of their own accord
even from the counting stage, and in my experience, I have come across
persons whose out and in-breaths automatically disappeared.
Normally when you meditate your breath will become calm by itself so this process is most of the time automatic.

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Re: What is stilling physical processes ?

Post by SarathW » Mon Jan 13, 2020 2:43 am

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:44 am
SarathW wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 12:23 am
It appears to me this is the first Jhana state because the meditator still has the Vitakka and Vicara, Piti, Sukha, and Ekaggta.
If the breath is experienced coming in & out, there is no ekaggata. No breathing in jhana.
Breathing stops only in fourth Jhana.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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DooDoot
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Re: What is stilling physical processes ?

Post by DooDoot » Mon Jan 13, 2020 3:01 am

SarathW wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 2:43 am
Breathing stops only in fourth Jhana.
1st jhana has five factors, which do not include breathing. The breathing is known to have stopped in the 4th jhana because there is no more rapture & happiness covering any possible awareness of breathing. In 1st, 2nd & 3rd jhana, awareness of any breathing is not possible due to rapture & happiness. Since both Ajahn Buddhadasa and Ajahn Brahm disagree with you, I guess you must certainly be wrong.
Ajahn Brahm wrote:When in the stage of the beautiful breath, the breath disappears, only the beauty remains. One is aware not of nothingness, but of beauty, the pitisukha without any perception of breath. This is another important stage in one's meditation. It is a step closer to Jhana.... When the breath disappears and delight fills the mind, the nimitta usually appears.... When the nimitta is radiant and stable... the pitisukha becomes huge and the nimitta grows in luminosity.... If one can maintain the one-pointedness here by keeping one's focus on the very center of the nimitta... until it envelops the knower, swallowing one up in cosmic ecstasy. One is entering Jhana.... No such thinking can exist within the stillness of Jhana.

https://www.dhammatalks.net/Books/Ajahn ... Jhanas.htm
Ajahn Buddhadasa:
Ajahn Buddhadasa wrote:We choose such an image and focus all of the mind on it, in order to develop a concentrated mind. Focus on just this simple point. None of the citta wanders anywhere else. It all gathers together on this single spot. Now, we must turn inward onto one focus, all of that outward flowing. In Pali this state is called "ekaggata," which means "to have a single peak, focus, or apex." Everything gathers together at this single focus. We have found the image that is most appropriate - a tiny central point -- now the mind plunges into it. The mental flow is collected at this point in the same way that a magnifying glass collects the sun's rays and focuses them into a single point powerful enough to ignite a flame. This example illustrates the power that is harnessed when all of the mind's energy is gathered into one point. Once the mind focuses upon the object we have chosen, its radiance gathers there and becomes ekaggata - one-pointed, one-peaked, one-pinnacled.

Lastly, one-pointedness of mind continues as before. Thus, the mind on this level of samadhi (concentration) has five factors: noting (vitakka), experiencing (vicara), contentment (piti), joy (sukha), and one-pointedness (ekaggata). These five show that the mind has entered the first level of perfect samadhi. This kind of awareness does not include any kind of think­ing, yet these five activities of the mind occur

http://dhammatalks.net/Books3/Bhikkhu_B ... athing.htm
Ajahn Buddhadasa again, below, from book page 155:
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Last edited by DooDoot on Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: What is stilling physical processes ?

Post by DooDoot » Mon Jan 13, 2020 3:46 am

char101 wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 2:19 am
From Anapana Dipani by Ven. Ledi Sayadaw:
if the rough and coarse out and in-breaths do not become automatically calmed and allayed to the point of disappearance then, in accordance with the text of the fourth section of the first tetrad of the Pāḷi Text, wherein it is said, “Passambhayaṃ kāyasaṅknāraṃ assasissāmī’ti sikkhati, passambhayaṃ kāyasaṅkhāraṃ passasissāmī’ti sikkhati,
Ven. Ledi Sayadaw appears wrong above because every stage of Anapanasati includes knowing of breathing according to the sutta. This appears to indicate Anapanasati is not the same as jhana.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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