The cause of suffering

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Haniver
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The cause of suffering

Post by Haniver » Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:04 pm

Hello friends,
Sometimes I get attached to phenomena because I desire it, but some others I get attached to it because I have aversion to it. For example, if I'm physically hurt, I become afraid that the wound will last for very long, and I will be in a lot of pain, etc, and I just can't let go of the thought/feeling. So it's not only through desire that I get attached.
So my question is: what is the second noble truth, the cause of suffering: desire or any form of attachment?

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Sam Vara
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Re: The cause of suffering

Post by Sam Vara » Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:15 pm

Haniver wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:04 pm
Hello friends,
Sometimes I get attached to phenomena because I desire it, but some others I get attached to it because I have aversion to it. For example, if I'm physically hurt, I become afraid that the wound will last for very long, and I will be in a lot of pain, etc, and I just can't let go of the thought/feeling. So it's not only through desire that I get attached.
So my question is: what is the second noble truth, the cause of suffering: desire or any form of attachment?
Any form of attachment.
And this, monks, is the noble truth of the origination of stress: the craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

You could, of course, see the issue of worrying about the wound as one of being attached to a particular desire. You desire your body to be the way it was before the injury, or you desire rapid healing, or you desire to have one sort of feeling rather than another. It doesn't, as far as I can see, make much difference as to whether you construe this as attachment to a desire, or holding on to aversion; the outcome is the same suffering.

Haniver
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Re: The cause of suffering

Post by Haniver » Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:32 pm

Thank you. The question is what's the source of that attachment? Aversion or desire? Or is all aversion grounded on desire?

santa100
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Re: The cause of suffering

Post by santa100 » Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:45 pm

Haniver wrote:Aversion or desire? Or is all aversion grounded on desire?
If you think about it, aversion to something is really just another way of saying you're desiring for the opposite of that something. Your aversion to physical pain is really just a manifestation of your desire for non-physical-pain, or its grosser more explicit state of physical pleasure. That's why the 2nd NT doesn't need to mention aversion. It's all just desire running underneath.

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Sam Vara
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Re: The cause of suffering

Post by Sam Vara » Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:51 pm

Haniver wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:32 pm
Thank you. The question is what's the source of that attachment? Aversion or desire? Or is all aversion grounded on desire?
One way to look at it (which seems helpful to me at the moment) is that the source of that attachment is ignorance: not seeing things as they really are. The attachment can manifest itself as either desire (i.e. for something that you incorrectly think will put an end to your suffering) or aversion (i.e. thinking that getting rid of a feeling will solve your problem). Same process, different labels.

I think Santa is saying the same thing (probably more intelligibly!) in his response.

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Bundokji
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Re: The cause of suffering

Post by Bundokji » Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:51 pm

Haniver wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:32 pm
Thank you. The question is what's the source of that attachment? Aversion or desire? Or is all aversion grounded on desire?
In the teachings on dependent origination, the root cause is described as "ignorance".

The conditions necessary for attachments are:

1- To have feelings of pleasure and pain
2- To have volition
3- An identification with the mind and body
4- Not knowing how to use/live with the above in a way that does not produce suffering
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

justindesilva
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Re: The cause of suffering

Post by justindesilva » Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:04 pm

Haniver wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:32 pm
Thank you. The question is what's the source of that attachment? Aversion or desire? Or is all aversion grounded on desire?
The answer to this question lies in Paticca samuppada or dependant co or intimation. Starting from Nama Rupa : Nama Rupa meaning mind & form , Nama Rupa conditions salayatana ( six senses) which conditions phassa or contact , phasso paccaya vedana or feeling ( contact conditions feeling as dukka or sukha), Vedana or feeling conditions tanha or desire ( desires for sensual feelings of six senses ( Jana tanha) or material objects. Tanha paccaya upadana means that we cling to desires is also conditioned.
We as lay beings desire for sensual pleasure and when we are unable to succeed in sensual desires we end up with dvesha.
It is only by developing non greed that we can stay away from anger or aversion as a result of not fulfilling our sensual desires.
Hence the source of attachment is tanha or sensual desires arising from salayatana.

Haniver
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Re: The cause of suffering

Post by Haniver » Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:20 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:51 pm
The attachment can manifest itself as either desire (i.e. for something that you incorrectly think will put an end to your suffering) or aversion (i.e. thinking that getting rid of a feeling will solve your problem). Same process, different labels.

I think Santa is saying the same thing (probably more intelligibly!) in his response.
Your answer is not only intelligible, but very helpful. I read the Sallatha Sutta not long ago that talks about this and it was very useful, but what you're saying makes it even clearer.

SteRo
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Re: The cause of suffering

Post by SteRo » Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:31 pm

Haniver wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:04 pm
So my question is: what is the second noble truth, the cause of suffering: desire or any form of attachment?
Yes. More basically it is just innate ignorance.
From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes ... aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair ... Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

JohnK
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Re: The cause of suffering

Post by JohnK » Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:48 pm

Haniver wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:32 pm
...what's the source of that attachment? Aversion or desire?
Seems to me that attachment is the source of both aversion and desire (i.e., the reverse of the cause/effect relationship your question implies).
:anjali:
Those who grasp at perceptions & views wander the internet creating friction. [based on Sn4:9,v.847]

PeterC86
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Re: The cause of suffering

Post by PeterC86 » Fri Jan 10, 2020 10:12 pm

Haniver wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:04 pm
Hello friends,
Sometimes I get attached to phenomena because I desire it, but some others I get attached to it because I have aversion to it. For example, if I'm physically hurt, I become afraid that the wound will last for very long, and I will be in a lot of pain, etc, and I just can't let go of the thought/feeling. So it's not only through desire that I get attached.
So my question is: what is the second noble truth, the cause of suffering: desire or any form of attachment?
You could die at any moment. The only thing one can do until that happens is to make the best of it.

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DooDoot
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Re: The cause of suffering

Post by DooDoot » Sat Jan 11, 2020 12:31 am

Haniver wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:04 pm
Sometimes I get attached to phenomena because I desire it, but some others I get attached to it because I have aversion to it.
Aversion is a type of desire or craving, i.e., craving not to be (vibhava tanha).
Haniver wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:04 pm
So my question is: what is the second noble truth, the cause of suffering: desire or any form of attachment?
The second noble is not about the 'cause' ('hetu') of suffering. The second noble is about the 'arising' ('samudaya') of suffering. The second noble truth says suffering arises when there is craving leading to new becoming. Becoming is similar to attachment. There are three types of craving, namely, sensual craving, craving to be & craving not to be, where the later includes aversion. Therefore, suffering in relation to the feeling of pain is when there is attachment to aversion leading to ego/self becoming.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

Srilankaputra
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Re: The cause of suffering

Post by Srilankaputra » Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:25 am

Haniver wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:04 pm
Hello friends,
Sometimes I get attached to phenomena because I desire it, but some others I get attached to it because I have aversion to it. For example, if I'm physically hurt, I become afraid that the wound will last for very long, and I will be in a lot of pain, etc, and I just can't let go of the thought/feeling.
Attachment is the suffering there;
Here, householder, the uninstructed worldling, who is not a seer of the noble ones and is unskilled and undisciplined in their Dhamma, who is not a seer of superior persons and is unskilled and undisciplined in their Dhamma, regards form as self, or self as possessing form, or form as in self, or self as in form. He lives obsessed by the notions: ‘I am form, form is mine.’ As he lives obsessed by these notions, that form of his changes and alters. With the change and alteration of form, there arise in him sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair.

“He regards feeling as self, or self as possessing feeling, or feeling as in self, or self as in feeling. He lives obsessed by the notions: ‘I am feeling, feeling is mine.’ As he lives obsessed by these notions, that feeling of his changes and alters. With the change and alteration of feeling, there arise in him sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair.

“He regards perception as self, or self as possessing perception, or perception as in self, or self as in perception. He lives obsessed by the notions: ‘I am perception, perception is mine.’ As he lives obsessed by these notions, that perception of his changes and alters. With the change and alteration of perception, there arise in him sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair.

“He regards volitional formations as self, or self as possessing volitional formations, or volitional formations as in self, or self as in volitional formations. He lives obsessed by the notions: ‘I am volitional formations, volitional formations are mine.’ As he lives obsessed by these notions, those volitional formations of his change and alter. With the change and alteration of volitional formations, there arise in him sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair.

“He regards consciousness as self, or self as possessing consciousness, or consciousness as in self, or self as in consciousness. He lives obsessed by the notions: ‘I am consciousness, consciousness is mine.’ As he lives obsessed by these notions, that consciousness of his changes and alters. With the change and alteration of consciousness, there arise in him sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair.

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.1/en/bodhi
Haniver wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:04 pm
what is the second noble truth, the cause of suffering: desire or any form of attachment?

Craving(tanha) , not seeing the above drawbacks and an escape.

By completely giving up what thing is there what is called Nibbāna?”


By completely giving up craving there is what is called Nibbāna.”
http://suttacentral.net/snp5.14/en/anandajoti

To eat once & never look for more?

“The end of wanting to look, to know,
to hope for knowing more,
The end of entanglements.
The mind sits still on its dais,
discarding its attachments.”


A four-sided pool, brimming full?

“The end of desire, abandoning doubt,
clean, without a mote, & danger-free.
Saññās settle out, saṅkhāras don’t disturb it.
The heart is thus brimming, with nothing lacking.
Quiet & still, the mind
has no lamenting thoughts:
something worth admiring day after day.
Even if one were to gain
heavenly treasures by the millions,
they’d be no match for the true knowing
that abandons all saṅkhāras.

The crucial thing: the ending of desire.
Labels stay in their own sphere and don’t intrude.
The mind, unenthralled with anything,
stops its struggling.
https://www.dhammatalks.org/books/Heart ... n0006.html
O seeing one,we for refuge go to thee!
O mighty sage do thou our teacher be!

Paccuppannañca yo dhammaṃ,
Tattha tattha vipassati

“Yato yato mano nivāraye,
Na dukkhameti naṃ tato tato;
Sa sabbato mano nivāraye,
Sa sabbato dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

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