Is discussing dhamma a kind of mental proliferation ?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
SarathW
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Re: Is discussing dhamma a kind of mental proliferation ?

Post by SarathW » Fri Dec 27, 2019 7:56 am

sentinel wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 5:14 am
SarathW wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 5:03 am
I think they have wholesome Vitakka and Vicara.
So , the Buddha and Arahants still give rise to wholesome thoughts , that's mean they have dualistic thinking !
Perhaps I may be wrong.
Investigate and let me know.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Is discussing dhamma a kind of mental proliferation ?

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala » Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:43 am

sentinel wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 7:33 am
Discussion , questions and answers and clarifying the dhamma should not be an obstacle I supposed.
Kālena dhammasākacchā, etaṃ maṅgalamuttamaṃ = Opportune discussion of the Dhamma, this is the most auspicious sign.

Obviously, Dhamma discussion is wholesome. My point is that this seldom happens on this forum any more. By far the majority of threads were started just to proliferate, and seldom lead anywhere useful. They were not sincere questions asked in the pursuit of the truth.
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robertk
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Re: Is discussing dhamma a kind of mental proliferation ?

Post by robertk » Fri Dec 27, 2019 9:51 am

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:43 am
sentinel wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 7:33 am
Discussion , questions and answers and clarifying the dhamma should not be an obstacle I supposed.
Kālena dhammasākacchā, etaṃ maṅgalamuttamaṃ = Opportune discussion of the Dhamma, this is the most auspicious sign.

Obviously, Dhamma discussion is wholesome. My point is that this seldom happens on this forum any more. By far the majority of threads were started just to proliferate, and seldom lead anywhere useful. They were not sincere questions asked in the pursuit of the truth.
Dear Venerable
if you posted regularly it would bring up the quality of the forum.
with respect
robert

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Bundokji
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Re: Is discussing dhamma a kind of mental proliferation ?

Post by Bundokji » Fri Dec 27, 2019 10:54 am

robertk wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 9:51 am
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:43 am
sentinel wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 7:33 am
Discussion , questions and answers and clarifying the dhamma should not be an obstacle I supposed.
Kālena dhammasākacchā, etaṃ maṅgalamuttamaṃ = Opportune discussion of the Dhamma, this is the most auspicious sign.

Obviously, Dhamma discussion is wholesome. My point is that this seldom happens on this forum any more. By far the majority of threads were started just to proliferate, and seldom lead anywhere useful. They were not sincere questions asked in the pursuit of the truth.
Dear Venerable
if you posted regularly it would bring up the quality of the forum.
with respect
robert
I second that :anjali:
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

SarathW
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Re: Is discussing dhamma a kind of mental proliferation ?

Post by SarathW » Fri Dec 27, 2019 11:14 am

Bundokji wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 10:54 am
robertk wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 9:51 am
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:43 am

Kālena dhammasākacchā, etaṃ maṅgalamuttamaṃ = Opportune discussion of the Dhamma, this is the most auspicious sign.

Obviously, Dhamma discussion is wholesome. My point is that this seldom happens on this forum any more. By far the majority of threads were started just to proliferate, and seldom lead anywhere useful. They were not sincere questions asked in the pursuit of the truth.
Dear Venerable
if you posted regularly it would bring up the quality of the forum.
with respect
robert
I second that :anjali:
I third that.
I feel that we need the input from experienced monks for this forum.
The problem is we might not agree with the opinions of the monk all the time.
It is not easy always to convince another person what you learn only from your experience.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

ToVincent
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Re: Is discussing dhamma a kind of mental proliferation ?

Post by ToVincent » Fri Dec 27, 2019 11:37 am

Papañca
(Development of the (sensory) "world")

https://justpaste.it/3f6gs

________


papañca = prapañca


::::::::::::::::::::
प्रपञ्च prapañca [pra-pañca] (√ pac , or pañc)
- the expansion of the universe , the visible world (Up.)
पञ्च् √ pañc or √ pac
- to spread out Dhātup.
- the developing world (ŚBr. ŚvetUp)
::::::::::::::::::::

In AN 4.173, one can read:
Appapañcaṃ papañceti,

translated as:

- one proliferates that which is not to be proliferated (Bodhi)
- objectifies non-objectification (Thanissaro)
- “He creates proliferation [or speculations] in relation to something that should not be proliferated [or speculated about]. (Mp)
- proliferating the unproliferated (Sujato)

Knowing the definition of the "world" in Buddhism (SN 35.82), one could also translate appapañcaṃ papañceti as:
"He develops (expands) the undeveloped (sensory world).

Then

"Friend, as far as the range of the six bases for contact extends, just so far extends the range of proliferation. As far as the range of proliferation extends, just so far extends the range of the six bases for contact. With the remainderless fading away and cessation of the six bases for contact there is the cessation of proliferation, the subsiding of proliferation.”
(Transl: Bodhi)
Yāvatā, āvuso, channaṃ phas­sāyata­nā­naṃ gati tāvatā papañcassa gati; yāvatā papañcassa gati tāvatā channaṃ phas­sāyata­nā­naṃ gati. Channaṃ, āvuso, phas­sāyata­nā­naṃ asesa­virāga­nirodhā papañcanirodho papañ­ca­vū­pasamo”ti.

could also be translated as:

"Friend, as far as the range of the six fields of sensory experiences for contact extends, just so far extends the range of the developing world (of senses). As far as the range of the developing world (of senses) extends, just so far extends the range of the six fields of sensory experiences for contact. With the remainderless fading away and cessation of the six fields of sensory experiences for contact, there is the cessation of the developing world (of senses) , the subsiding of the developing world (of senses) ”.

And the Agama parallel (SA 249), would also translate as:

But if one says that after the extinction of the six sense-spheres of contact, and the fading away of desire, after cessation, after ending, there is fading away of all "development of the sensory world" *, and the attaining of nirvāṇa, then this is the teaching of the Buddha.”
(* Here the translator renders it as "meaningless argument" - however, "argument" or "dialogue" is a post-Buddha's term for papañca in Sanskrit literature).


Whoever has given up development of the sensory world,
Delighting in the path free of development of the sensory world,
Is blessed with nibbāna,
The unexcelled safety from the yoke.
Thag 17.2


NOTE:
MA 15 & EA 40, the parallels of MN 18, do not adress the issue of papañca.
Instead of papañ­ca­saññā­saṅ­khā, MA for instance, speaks in praise of detachment in regard to past,
present, and future phenomena.

The commonality between the MN & the MA/EA is about the presence of sense & object & consciousness.
Which seems to agree with the SN 35.82 & SA 231 definition of the "world", as covered above.

Papañca is just about developing the sensory "world". And that is what the very few suttas with parallels are concerned with.

And as far as Snp 4.14 is concerned:

Having considered the root of the development of the (sensory) "world",
He should consider preventing all (notion of) "I am".
He should train, always mindful,
to dispel any craving inside him.

Mūlaṃ papañcasaṅkhāya,
Mantā asmīti sabbamuparundhe;
Yā kāci taṇhā ajjhattaṃ,
Tāsaṃ vinayā sadā sato sikkhe.

This shows that it has obviously to do with the "I". (see SN 22.47 and its almost perfect parallels).
Dispel the "I am this" (external), then the "I am". The latter being the factor of the development of the (sensory) "world" - of papañca.

.

_______

AN 8.30 is about not developing the "world" (of senses) [nippapañca].
.
.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... - In this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------

https://justpaste.it/j5o4

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Bundokji
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Re: Is discussing dhamma a kind of mental proliferation ?

Post by Bundokji » Fri Dec 27, 2019 11:51 am

SarathW wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 11:14 am
I third that.
I feel that we need the input from experienced monks for this forum.
The problem is we might not agree with the opinions of the monk all the time.
It is not easy always to convince another person what you learn only from your experience.
From my own observations, advanced practitioners in general and monastics in particular do not express opinions in relation to the dhamma. The dhamma is clear and straightforward, while confused/defiled minds have natural aversion to clarity. This is one way of contemplating what papanca means

While encountering knowledgeable practitioners is a blessing, the question is: are we teachable?

I hope Ven Pesala would contribute more often, but at the same time, i have sympathy with his point of view. Misplaced generosity is not necessarily wise.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

form
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Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:23 am

Re: Is discussing dhamma a kind of mental proliferation ?

Post by form » Fri Dec 27, 2019 1:00 pm

Bundokji wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 11:51 am
SarathW wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 11:14 am
I third that.
I feel that we need the input from experienced monks for this forum.
The problem is we might not agree with the opinions of the monk all the time.
It is not easy always to convince another person what you learn only from your experience.
From my own observations, advanced practitioners in general and monastics in particular do not express opinions in relation to the dhamma. The dhamma is clear and straightforward, while confused/defiled minds have natural aversion to clarity. This is one way of contemplating what papanca means

While encountering knowledgeable practitioners is a blessing, the question is: are we teachable?

I hope Ven Pesala would contribute more often, but at the same time, i have sympathy with his point of view. Misplaced generosity is not necessarily wise.
:goodpost:

SteRo
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Re: Is discussing dhamma a kind of mental proliferation ?

Post by SteRo » Fri Dec 27, 2019 1:04 pm

I think one should differentiate between mental proliferation aka formations/fabrications (thought & evaluation, perceptions & feelings) which is a characteristic of life and papanca which is an excess of mental proliferation. Papanca is rooted in unwholesome cetasika. Mental proliferations only end temporarily.
Listening to a teachings or studying them is mental proliferation, giving teachings is mental proliferation. Being mindful of this or that is mental proliferation. Mental proliferation can be conducive or non-conducive or a hindrance. Papanca - even in the context of teachings - can never be conducive since there is a lack of concentration, resolve, faith, etc. a lack of wholesome factors.

SteRo
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Re: Is discussing dhamma a kind of mental proliferation ?

Post by SteRo » Fri Dec 27, 2019 1:25 pm

sentinel wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 5:14 am
SarathW wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 5:03 am
I think they have wholesome Vitakka and Vicara.
So , the Buddha and Arahants still give rise to wholesome thoughts , that's mean they have dualistic thinking !
That sounds a bit weird ... as if Buddha and Arahants would have selves that are the masters of thoughts.

Not being affected by mental proliferation anymore why should it be relevant whether thoughts are dualistic or not?

sunnat
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Re: Is discussing dhamma a kind of mental proliferation ?

Post by sunnat » Fri Dec 27, 2019 2:02 pm

what is proliferation

chownah
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Re: Is discussing dhamma a kind of mental proliferation ?

Post by chownah » Fri Dec 27, 2019 2:12 pm

I don't subscribe to stero's delineation of and discussion of 'mental proliferation' but I agree completely with his call for a working definition.
Sentinal,
By "mental proliferation" did you mean what in the suttas thanissaro refers to as consciousness proliferation...or something else?
chownah

SteRo
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Re: Is discussing dhamma a kind of mental proliferation ?

Post by SteRo » Fri Dec 27, 2019 2:33 pm

sunnat wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 2:02 pm
what is proliferation
dictionary wrote:the sudden increase in the number or amount of something
"number or amount" of what? Foci of attention. Fabricating or understanding one sentence coincides with a sudden increase in the number foci of attention.

sentinel
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Re: Is discussing dhamma a kind of mental proliferation ?

Post by sentinel » Fri Dec 27, 2019 3:26 pm

chownah wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 2:12 pm
Sentinal,
By "mental proliferation" did you mean what in the suttas thanissaro refers to as consciousness proliferation...or something else?
chownah
I supposed everyone should understand .
Since English is not my first language I will follow my understanding in Chinese .

Papanca or mental proliferation is something either in worldly discourse or knowledge that is unbeneficial for liberation but for amusement without real merits . In this case the talks or Obsession about something "unreal or delusory" , "confused or topsy-turvy" , "arousing cravings" , "competitions" , "fruitless topics" , "egotist" and "longevity" .

Probably here people have different understanding I don't know .
Regards
“Three things cannot be long hidden: the sun, the moon, and the truth.” -Buddha

atipattoh
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Re: Is discussing dhamma a kind of mental proliferation ?

Post by atipattoh » Fri Dec 27, 2019 3:54 pm

chownah wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 2:12 pm
.. call for a working definition.
Ven. Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli mention something related to the subject:
papañca-saññā-sankhā is not something which appears on a voluntary level, as if one could stop it at any time; it stretches from the most general (reflexive) levels of existence.
Dhamma discussion, one has control over it.

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