Awareness as the goal

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
SteRo
Posts: 912
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:27 am

Re: Awareness as the goal

Post by SteRo » Sun Dec 29, 2019 1:14 pm

thepea wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 1:04 pm
SteRo wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 12:22 pm

Even the so-called "random" motions of molecules aren't random. Why? Because these follow physical laws.
There is no randomness whatsoever.
That’s what I’m saying, and there is a law or order to nature. There is a higher power overseeing this.
"no randomness" means "conditioned", "depending on conditions". "higher power" is metaphysical speculation.

chownah
Posts: 8627
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Awareness as the goal

Post by chownah » Sun Dec 29, 2019 1:17 pm

thepea wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 1:04 pm
SteRo wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 12:22 pm

Even the so-called "random" motions of molecules aren't random. Why? Because these follow physical laws.
There is no randomness whatsoever.
That’s what I’m saying, and there is a law or order to nature. There is a higher power overseeing this.
I'm not wanting to encourage you in this line of "reasoning" but I will just ask how you know it is a higher power....perhaps it is a lower power.....perhaps it is just randomness. Someone makes an uninformed statement about randomness and even though you don't really understand you jump at it since with it you can construct some sort of "reasoning" which supports your views....it is called "grasping at views".
chownah

chownah
Posts: 8627
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Awareness as the goal

Post by chownah » Sun Dec 29, 2019 1:24 pm

SteRo wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 1:14 pm
thepea wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 1:04 pm
SteRo wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 12:22 pm

Even the so-called "random" motions of molecules aren't random. Why? Because these follow physical laws.
There is no randomness whatsoever.
That’s what I’m saying, and there is a law or order to nature. There is a higher power overseeing this.
"no randomness" means "conditioned", "depending on conditions". "higher power" is metaphysical speculation.
Physical laws are metaphysical speculation.

If "no randomness" means "conditioned" then it seems that "randomness" means "unconditioned". I guess this means that randomness has something in common with nibbana....seems like this guess is wrong but it does seem like it follows from your assertion.
chownah

thepea
Posts: 1493
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Awareness as the goal

Post by thepea » Sun Dec 29, 2019 1:26 pm

SteRo wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 1:14 pm

"no randomness" means "conditioned", "depending on conditions". "higher power" is metaphysical speculation.
Random means without conscious decision.
Breath is not random it is linked to mind.

SteRo
Posts: 912
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:27 am

Re: Awareness as the goal

Post by SteRo » Sun Dec 29, 2019 1:27 pm

chownah wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 1:12 pm
SteRo wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 12:22 pm
Even the so-called "random" motions of molecules aren't random. Why? Because these follow physical laws.
There is no randomness whatsoever.
Certainly there is randomness.....it is just that you do not know what randomness means in the context that I presented....
chownah
you seem to confuse non-predictability with randomness. Non-predictability is usually approached with statistics.

SteRo
Posts: 912
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:27 am

Re: Awareness as the goal

Post by SteRo » Sun Dec 29, 2019 1:32 pm

chownah wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 1:24 pm
SteRo wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 1:14 pm
thepea wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 1:04 pm

That’s what I’m saying, and there is a law or order to nature. There is a higher power overseeing this.
"no randomness" means "conditioned", "depending on conditions". "higher power" is metaphysical speculation.
Physical laws are metaphysical speculation.
To apply the term 'law' is a matter of conventional speech. "Valid theory" would be more scientific.
chownah wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 1:24 pm
If "no randomness" means "conditioned" then it seems that "randomness" means "unconditioned". I guess this means that randomness has something in common with nibbana....seems like this guess is wrong but it does seem like it follows from your assertion.
chownah
"Depending on conditions" excludes randomness. "randomness" means "not depending on conditions" in the context of the arising of phenomena. The latter is not the meaning of "unconditioned" in the context of nibbana.

chownah
Posts: 8627
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Awareness as the goal

Post by chownah » Sun Dec 29, 2019 2:48 pm

SteRo wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 1:32 pm
chownah wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 1:24 pm
SteRo wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 1:14 pm


"no randomness" means "conditioned", "depending on conditions". "higher power" is metaphysical speculation.
Physical laws are metaphysical speculation.
To apply the term 'law' is a matter of conventional speech. "Valid theory" would be more scientific.
Valid theories are metaphysical speculation.
SteRo wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 1:32 pm
chownah wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 1:24 pm
If "no randomness" means "conditioned" then it seems that "randomness" means "unconditioned". I guess this means that randomness has something in common with nibbana....seems like this guess is wrong but it does seem like it follows from your assertion.
chownah
"Depending on conditions" excludes randomness. "randomness" means "not depending on conditions" in the context of the arising of phenomena. The latter is not the meaning of "unconditioned" in the context of nibbana.
You seem to either not understand randomness in the context I used it or you refuse to acknowledge it....instead you create a new context where you think that things like ""depending on conditions" excludes randomness" make sense but really it is difficult to imagine a context where this makes sense because conditions can occur randomly.

Also, if you want to talk about randomness with respect to anything having to do the arising of phenomena or with nibbana then we need to go to the suttas and try to find something where randomness is mentioned or at least clearly implied.....why?....because we are on a theravada forum and these are things that refer to theravada doctrines as part of the convention of conversation here and whenever there is a statement concerning theravada doctrine here the convention of conversation is to go to the suttas and see what it says.
chownah

chownah
Posts: 8627
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Awareness as the goal

Post by chownah » Sun Dec 29, 2019 3:13 pm

thepea wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 12:07 pm
chownah wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 4:10 am
There is no awareness required.....and actually there is no "sensation" required either....to use the terms "awareness" and "sensation" in this respect is like saying that when molecules react chemically they are "aware" of what is going on because they have "sensation" (because the processes you describe all happen at the molecular level and are well understood by physiologists)......but really the moleculse react because their random motions coincidentally places them in a certain orientation with respect to each other so that the charges of their constituents attract themselves and then holds their constituents together in a new configuration.....there is no "awareness" or "sensation" required.....it all happens by random motion and coincidence.
Are you suggesting that breathing is random without consciousness?
I was replying to you when you wrote:
There is detection of sensation of to much carbon dioxide in body which triggers a breath to add oxygen. Who is aware of this?
My reply was to indicate what triggers breath....how it is biochemical reactions which trigger breath especially when the breath is not in awareness and there is no cognizable sensation....when the breathing process is unconscious (what you woud like to call "subconscious" since you can find a definition of "subconscious" which supports your views (grasping at views))......and yes, I woud say that breathing is without consciousness when it is being contolled by the Autonomic Nervous System since most (but not all) ANS functions are not consciously perceived. You will find in studying the ANS that there are "sensory neurons" but that does not mean that there are "sensations" just as a "pressure sensor" in a water pump is not involved with "sensations".
chownah

chownah
Posts: 8627
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Awareness as the goal

Post by chownah » Sun Dec 29, 2019 3:26 pm

thepea wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 1:26 pm
SteRo wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 1:14 pm

"no randomness" means "conditioned", "depending on conditions". "higher power" is metaphysical speculation.
Random means without conscious decision.
Breath is not random it is linked to mind.
I guess that one outcome of what you are saying is that if one is breathing without conscious decision (like when the ANS is controlling the breath) then it might be random.....
Please tell me, in your view what stuff is random?
chownah

thepea
Posts: 1493
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Awareness as the goal

Post by thepea » Sun Dec 29, 2019 4:23 pm

chownah wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 3:26 pm
I guess that one outcome of what you are saying is that if one is breathing without conscious decision (like when the ANS is controlling the breath) then it might be random.....
Please tell me, in your view what stuff is random?
chownah
Nothing

thepea
Posts: 1493
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Awareness as the goal

Post by thepea » Sun Dec 29, 2019 6:44 pm

chownah wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 3:13 pm
..when the breathing process is unconscious (what you woud like to call "subconscious" since you can find a definition of "subconscious" which supports your views (grasping at views))......
What do you mean by “grasping at views”?

chownah
Posts: 8627
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Awareness as the goal

Post by chownah » Mon Dec 30, 2019 4:30 am

thepea wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 4:23 pm
chownah wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 3:26 pm
I guess that one outcome of what you are saying is that if one is breathing without conscious decision (like when the ANS is controlling the breath) then it might be random.....
Please tell me, in your view what stuff is random?
chownah
Nothing
Seems like this indicates a belief in predestination.....a denial of free will.
The idea that there is no free will seems to come into conflict with the idea (which seemingly the buddha expressed) that it is the individual's efforts which propel them along the noble path (or propel's them elsewhere). So this seems to be an issue of buddhist doctrine and so I guess we should go to the suttas and see what the buddha said about predestination, free will, and/or randomness....I think we should do this because the convention of conversation here on this theravada forum is that when a matter of doctrines is discussed then we should do as the buddha taught which is to go to the teachings and study them line by line etc.
chownah

chownah
Posts: 8627
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Awareness as the goal

Post by chownah » Mon Dec 30, 2019 4:37 am

thepea wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 6:44 pm
chownah wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 3:13 pm
..when the breathing process is unconscious (what you woud like to call "subconscious" since you can find a definition of "subconscious" which supports your views (grasping at views))......
What do you mean by “grasping at views”?
That's a really big topic and you might start by going to accesstoinsite and searching for "grasping at views".....there is alot there and I will just bring one sutta which I think places grasping at views in its over arching context:
AN 10.13 Sanyojana Sutta: Fetters
"There are these ten fetters. Which ten? Five lower fetters & five higher fetters. And which are the five lower fetters? Self-identity views, uncertainty, grasping at precepts & practices, sensual desire, & ill will. These are the five lower fetters. And which are the five higher fetters? Passion for form, passion for what is formless, conceit, restlessness, & ignorance. These are the five higher fetters. And these are the ten fetters."
chownah

SteRo
Posts: 912
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:27 am

Re: Awareness as the goal

Post by SteRo » Mon Dec 30, 2019 6:13 am

chownah wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 2:48 pm
SteRo wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 1:32 pm
chownah wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 1:24 pm

Physical laws are metaphysical speculation.
To apply the term 'law' is a matter of conventional speech. "Valid theory" would be more scientific.
Valid theories are metaphysical speculation.
you behave like a child. If you are interested in the scientific view, I have already elaborated on that here:
viewtopic.php?p=539116#p539116

It is up to you to decide for the popular term 'law' like in 'physical law' or for the scientific 'theory' which implies scientific validity. Both are empty of metaphysical speculation but are based on common experience of the senses and corresponding conventional language.
chownah wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 2:48 pm
SteRo wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 1:32 pm
chownah wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 1:24 pm
If "no randomness" means "conditioned" then it seems that "randomness" means "unconditioned". I guess this means that randomness has something in common with nibbana....seems like this guess is wrong but it does seem like it follows from your assertion.
chownah
"Depending on conditions" excludes randomness. "randomness" means "not depending on conditions" in the context of the arising of phenomena. The latter is not the meaning of "unconditioned" in the context of nibbana.
You seem to either not understand randomness in the context I used it or you refuse to acknowledge it....instead you create a new context where you think that things like ""depending on conditions" excludes randomness" make sense but really it is difficult to imagine a context where this makes sense because conditions can occur randomly.
Conditions depend on other conditions.
chownah wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 2:48 pm
Also, if you want to talk about randomness with respect to anything having to do the arising of phenomena or with nibbana then we need to go to the suttas and try to find something where randomness is mentioned or at least clearly implied.....why?....because we are on a theravada forum and these are things that refer to theravada doctrines as part of the convention of conversation here and whenever there is a statement concerning theravada doctrine here the convention of conversation is to go to the suttas and see what it says.
The suttas tell that there is no randomness. They are telling - paraphrased - "when there is this, that is going to be". You are free to quote a sutta which - from your perspective - expounds randomness

chownah
Posts: 8627
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Awareness as the goal

Post by chownah » Mon Dec 30, 2019 7:08 am

SteRo wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 6:13 am
chownah wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 2:48 pm
SteRo wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 1:32 pm

To apply the term 'law' is a matter of conventional speech. "Valid theory" would be more scientific.
Valid theories are metaphysical speculation.
you behave like a child. If you are interested in the scientific view, I have already elaborated on that here:
viewtopic.php?p=539116#p539116

It is up to you to decide for the popular term 'law' like in 'physical law' or for the scientific 'theory' which implies scientific validity. Both are empty of metaphysical speculation but are based on common experience of the senses and corresponding conventional language.
"Scientific validity" is metaphysical speculation just like all kinds of "validity". Some shopping centers have a parking garage where you get a ticket when you enter....if you buy something at a store in the shopping center they can "validate" your parking ticket so you don't have to pay for your parking....I'm sure that if you slipped a few pesos to the teller at the store he would "validate" your "scientific" too.
SteRo wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 6:13 am
chownah wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 2:48 pm
SteRo wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 1:32 pm

"Depending on conditions" excludes randomness. "randomness" means "not depending on conditions" in the context of the arising of phenomena. The latter is not the meaning of "unconditioned" in the context of nibbana.
You seem to either not understand randomness in the context I used it or you refuse to acknowledge it....instead you create a new context where you think that things like ""depending on conditions" excludes randomness" make sense but really it is difficult to imagine a context where this makes sense because conditions can occur randomly.
Conditions depend on other conditions.
chownah wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 2:48 pm
Also, if you want to talk about randomness with respect to anything having to do the arising of phenomena or with nibbana then we need to go to the suttas and try to find something where randomness is mentioned or at least clearly implied.....why?....because we are on a theravada forum and these are things that refer to theravada doctrines as part of the convention of conversation here and whenever there is a statement concerning theravada doctrine here the convention of conversation is to go to the suttas and see what it says.
The suttas tell that there is no randomness. They are telling - paraphrased - "when there is this, that is going to be". You are free to quote a sutta which - from your perspective - expounds randomness
Edit: Conditions depend on conditions....so what?....what's the point....what is the context....

Edit: You have not shown that the suttas say that there is no randomness.....you have shown that no randomness is not mentioned in your understanding of some teachings....I would say that no randomness is not mentioned explicitely in any teaching.....or even implied....
chownah
Last edited by chownah on Mon Dec 30, 2019 7:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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