Awareness as the goal

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
thepea
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Re: Awareness as the goal

Post by thepea » Sat Dec 21, 2019 8:41 pm

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote:
Sat Dec 21, 2019 7:47 pm

In this article, SNG's explanation on awareness is "manipulated" to portray as a kind of eternalist view [not an uncommon stance found on tricycle] which his teacher nor his teacher's teachers didn't hold.
Question: Does the object of awareness ever disappear so that there’s only awareness of awareness itself?
SNG: Exactly.

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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: Awareness as the goal

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta » Sat Dec 21, 2019 9:00 pm

thepea wrote:
Sat Dec 21, 2019 8:41 pm
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote:
Sat Dec 21, 2019 7:47 pm

In this article, SNG's explanation on awareness is "manipulated" to portray as a kind of eternalist view [not an uncommon stance found on tricycle] which his teacher nor his teacher's teachers didn't hold.
Question: Does the object of awareness ever disappear so that there’s only awareness of awareness itself?
SNG: Exactly.
:anjali:

Ah, thanks.

So what?

That doesn't make that [almighty] "pure" Awareness free from the realm of dukkha, [annica, anatta, & asubha].

Awareness of awareness itself is not an "extraordinary" phenomenon. Many teachers of various traditions tend to talk about that. These include students of Taung Pu Lu, Mahasi, Shwe Oo Min, and Ledi etc. And, many not-so-advanced students tend to talk about that as one of their experiences, as well.

Awareness in whatever form or state is within the realm of Dukkha.

:heart:
.


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thepea
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Re: Awareness as the goal

Post by thepea » Sat Dec 21, 2019 9:28 pm

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote:
Sat Dec 21, 2019 9:00 pm

That doesn't make that [almighty] "pure" Awareness free from the realm of dukkha, [annica, anatta, & asubha].

Awareness of awareness itself is not an "extraordinary" phenomenon. Many teachers of various traditions tend to talk about that. These include students of Taung Pu Lu, Mahasi, Shwe Oo Min, and Ledi etc. And, many not-so-advanced students tend to talk about that as one of their experiences, as well.

Awareness in whatever form or state is within the realm of Dukkha.

:heart:
Provide an awareness of awareness talk from one of your teachers.
Awareness is of a thought or form, once the canvas has been emptied of form and thought awareness enters its dimension of absolute purity. Awareness of awareness. Nibanna as the buddha described. Awareness free from thought or form is no longer awareness by definition. Hence calling it nibanna is appropriate.

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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: Awareness as the goal

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta » Sat Dec 21, 2019 9:56 pm

thepea wrote:
Sat Dec 21, 2019 9:28 pm
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote:
Sat Dec 21, 2019 9:00 pm

That doesn't make that [almighty] "pure" Awareness free from the realm of dukkha, [annica, anatta, & asubha].

Awareness of awareness itself is not an "extraordinary" phenomenon. Many teachers of various traditions tend to talk about that. These include students of Taung Pu Lu, Mahasi, Shwe Oo Min, and Ledi etc. And, many not-so-advanced students tend to talk about that as one of their experiences, as well.

Awareness in whatever form or state is within the realm of Dukkha.

:heart:
Provide an awareness of awareness talk from one of your teachers.
Awareness is of a thought or form, once the canvas has been emptied of form and thought awareness enters its dimension of absolute purity. Awareness of awareness. Nibanna as the buddha described. Awareness free from thought or for to be aware of is no longer awareness by definition. Hence calling it nibanna is appropriate.
I will, if I have time and if I think it is necessary.

Please search the teachings of your teacher's teacher - U Ba Khin [SNG said he taught in the tradition of U Ba Khin who, by the way, is a devout fan of Abhidhamma], and teachings of Ledi Sayadaw [your great-grand-teacher], to have a glimpse on what Nibbana means.



.


Nibbana is Not Dukkha, of course.
  • However, Experiencing nibbanic peace, as some would say, is Dukkha.
  • And, nibbana is not awareness [nor consciousness] in any form.
  • Awareness of awareness itself is not Nibbana. [totally unrelated]
"Awareness of awareness itself" is just a not-very-high mental state where the meditator's mind is dull enough [not catching up with finding the increasingly subtler objects], and not sharp enough to discern the characteristics [such as annica, ...] of that so-called "awareness itself", unfortunately ending up in undeservedly hailing on "awareness of awareness itself", mistakenly taking it to be Nibbana.


:heart:
.


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Self ...
  • "an entirely and perfectly foolish idea" :D ~ MN22

thepea
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Re: Awareness as the goal

Post by thepea » Sat Dec 21, 2019 10:17 pm

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote:
Sat Dec 21, 2019 9:56 pm

I will, if I have time and if I think it is necessary.

Please search the teachings of your teacher's teacher - U Ba Khin [SNG said he taught in the tradition of U Ba Khin who, by the way, is a devout fan of Abhidhamma], and teachings of Ledi Sayadaw [your great-grand-teacher], to have a glimpse on what Nibbana means.



.


Nibbana is Not Dukkha, of course.
  • However, Experiencing nibbanic peace, as some would say, is Dukkha.
  • And, nibbana is not awareness [nor consciousness] in any form.
  • Awareness of awareness itself is not Nibbana. [totally unrelated]
"Awareness of awareness itself" is just a not-very-high mental state where the meditator's mind is dull enough [not catching up with finding the increasingly subtler objects], and not sharp enough to discern the characteristics [such as annica, ...] of that so-called "awareness itself", unfortunately ending up in undeservedly hailing on "awareness of awareness itself", mistakenly taking it to be Nibbana.


:heart:
If there is something from this tradition you wish to add to the topic then do so, as a quote from any of the teachers within this tradition.
You are not describing awareness of awareness with your description of a dull unconcentrated mind state, and this is not what I am discussing. If you care to discuss this further I will, but do so with what I am saying and not thru your interpretation of me as a unconcentrated inexperienced student of goenka.
Furthermore, experiencing the nibannic peace within is not Dukkha.
Awareness of awareness is the final goal. Buddha after re-discovering this aptly named this nibbana.

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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: Awareness as the goal

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta » Sun Dec 22, 2019 6:52 am

.


---> Re: Awareness as the goal




"Awareness as the goal" is a Mahayana concept, at best.


Image
https://podbay.fm/podcast/370388305/e/1273115778









Mayahayana-ness of "awareness itself".
The Shamatha Practice of Awareness of Awareness
In Dzogchen, a fundamental point of practice is to distinguish ordinary mind (Tib. sem; Skt. citta) and rigpa.
Rigpa is the “self-reflexive awareness that cognizes Buddha-nature.”







Or, Goddish-ness, even.
"Everything Is God: The Radical Path of Nondual Judaism"
It has no focus, no sense of a meditator meditating; just awareness of awareness itself.

:heart:
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  • "an entirely and perfectly foolish idea" :D ~ MN22

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Aloka
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Re: Awareness as the goal

Post by Aloka » Sun Dec 22, 2019 8:42 am

As this is the "General Theravada discussion" section, I find Mahayana explanations irrelevant.

This is an excerpt from "Like Oil on Water" an article by Ajahn Amaro:
There is a quality of pure awareness that is not fazed by fleeting thoughts, emotions, or sense impressions, explain Ajahn Amaro and Ajahn Pasanno. Even when they are together, pure awareness and the conditioned realm are always separate.

Enlightenment, liberation, depends on the recognition of the radical separateness of awareness—“the one who knows” as Ajahn Chah would phrase it—and the world of the five khandhas (Sanskrit: skandhas). Having said that, it’s also crucial to note that the phrase “the one who knows” (Pali: buddho) is a colloquialism that has different meanings in different contexts. It can be used at one end of the spectrum to mean “that which cognizes an object,” and at the other end to mean supramundane wisdom. Most often it is used in simple concentration instructions, where the meditator separates awareness from the object and then focuses on the awareness. The separate awareness of full awakening is of a different order altogether.

(Continues at the link)

https://www.lionsroar.com/like-oil-and-water/

.

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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: Awareness as the goal

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta » Sun Dec 22, 2019 9:46 am

.

"not a thing that exists, but an event that occurs"
"until one goes beyond"
Cut through identification with the knowing mind.


In the meditative process, sometimes all objects seem to disappear, and all that’s left is consciousness, the knowing mind. But care is needed here, because there can be a subtle attachment to this state, an identification with awareness itself. This becomes an interesting place of investigation: we can notice how easy it is to make a home of awareness and have a sense of self settle right in. Andrew Olendzki, a senior scholar at the Barre Center for Buddhist Studies, expressed it this way: “Consciousness is not a thing that exists, but an event that occurs.”
The question then arises, how can we cut through this subtle identification with knowing, with consciousness? Different traditions use different methods. Mahasi Sayadaw, who described this state very clearly, reminded meditators to keep noting the knowing mind, until one goes beyond even knowing.
https://tricycle.org/magazine/end-suffering/
Joseph Goldstein





Contentment and stagnation at "awareness of awareness itself" is not conducive to full liberation.
It is not the goal.
Not even related to the goal. [in contrast, supramundane consciousnesses are related to the goal.]
It can even be the enemy of the goal.





To sum up:
”Awareness of awareness itself" is:
  • not the goal
  • not even related to the goal
  • possible enemy of the goal
  • a potential stagnation point on the path
  • Just a Dukkha process
:heart:
.


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  • "an entirely and perfectly foolish idea" :D ~ MN22

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equilibrium
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Re: Awareness as the goal

Post by equilibrium » Sun Dec 22, 2019 10:27 am

AN 10.81:
Just as a red, blue, or white lotus born in the water and growing in the water, rises up above the water and stands with no water adhering to it, in the same way the Tathagata — freed, dissociated, & released from these ten things — dwells with unrestricted awareness.

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Aloka
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Re: Awareness as the goal

Post by Aloka » Sun Dec 22, 2019 10:37 am

equilibrium wrote:
Sun Dec 22, 2019 10:27 am
AN 10.81:
Just as a red, blue, or white lotus born in the water and growing in the water, rises up above the water and stands with no water adhering to it, in the same way the Tathagata — freed, dissociated, & released from these ten things — dwells with unrestricted awareness.
Indeed, and as mentioned in my previous post :
The separate awareness of full awakening is of a different order altogether.

https://www.lionsroar.com/like-oil-and-water/


:anjali:

thepea
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Re: Awareness as the goal

Post by thepea » Sun Dec 22, 2019 1:14 pm

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote:
Sun Dec 22, 2019 9:46 am
.

"not a thing that exists, but an event that occurs"
"until one goes beyond"
Cut through identification with the knowing mind.


In the meditative process, sometimes all objects seem to disappear, and all that’s left is consciousness, the knowing mind. But care is needed here, because there can be a subtle attachment to this state, an identification with awareness itself. This becomes an interesting place of investigation: we can notice how easy it is to make a home of awareness and have a sense of self settle right in. Andrew Olendzki, a senior scholar at the Barre Center for Buddhist Studies, expressed it this way: “Consciousness is not a thing that exists, but an event that occurs.”
The question then arises, how can we cut through this subtle identification with knowing, with consciousness? Different traditions use different methods. Mahasi Sayadaw, who described this state very clearly, reminded meditators to keep noting the knowing mind, until one goes beyond even knowing.
https://tricycle.org/magazine/end-suffering/
Joseph Goldstein





Contentment and stagnation at "awareness of awareness itself" is not conducive to full liberation.
It is not the goal.
Not even related to the goal. [in contrast, supramundane consciousnesses are related to the goal.]
It can even be the enemy of the goal.





To sum up:
”Awareness of awareness itself" is:
  • not the goal
  • not even related to the goal
  • possible enemy of the goal
  • a potential stagnation point on the path
  • Just a Dukkha process
:heart:
The awareness of awareness that these seem describing as s trap is different to SNG’s description, in the sense that has the self , the I attached to this awareness is not present. What I am describing is when form and thought are not present. Passing through the first four jhanas form is refined and when passing from 4th to fifth mind is separated completely, moving from 5th to 8th mind shuts down at 8th jhana this sense of i or self is interrupted but still there is a grasping/ clinging of this self to awareness.
When this I/self falls away nibbana is the experience. No I/ self remains to “experience” this. Nibanna is “known” as this I/self returns. Nibanna is then known as this awareness separated from i/self. But this is not awareness when missing the i/self it is nibanna. Awareness is defined and linked to knowing a thought or form.
The awareness of awareness goldstein is describing here is not the same experience as I and SNG are pointing towards, Goldstein’s version of awareness of awareness has a self present. He is describing awareness of arising and passing, which is still merely awareness but with a changing focus of awareness.

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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: Awareness as the goal

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta » Sun Dec 22, 2019 3:07 pm

thepea wrote:
Sat Dec 21, 2019 10:17 pm
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote:
Sat Dec 21, 2019 9:56 pm

I will, if I have time and if I think it is necessary.

Please search the teachings of your teacher's teacher - U Ba Khin [SNG said he taught in the tradition of U Ba Khin who, by the way, is a devout fan of Abhidhamma], and teachings of Ledi Sayadaw [your great-grand-teacher], to have a glimpse on what Nibbana means.



.


Nibbana is Not Dukkha, of course.
  • However, Experiencing nibbanic peace, as some would say, is Dukkha.
  • And, nibbana is not awareness [nor consciousness] in any form.
  • Awareness of awareness itself is not Nibbana. [totally unrelated]
"Awareness of awareness itself" is just a not-very-high mental state where the meditator's mind is dull enough [not catching up with finding the increasingly subtler objects], and not sharp enough to discern the characteristics [such as annica, ...] of that so-called "awareness itself", unfortunately ending up in undeservedly hailing on "awareness of awareness itself", mistakenly taking it to be Nibbana.


:heart:
If there is something from this tradition you wish to add to the topic then do so, as a quote from any of the teachers within this tradition.
You are not describing awareness of awareness with your description of a dull unconcentrated mind state, and this is not what I am discussing. If you care to discuss this further I will, but do so with what I am saying and not thru your interpretation of me as a unconcentrated inexperienced student of goenka.
Furthermore, experiencing the nibannic peace within is not Dukkha.
Awareness of awareness is the final goal. Buddha after re-discovering this aptly named this nibbana.
I didn't mean you are an unconcentrated inexperienced student of SNG. Because, from what I already gathered even before reading this thread, it has been my understanding that you have ample experiences in regards to SNG's method.

And, I now clearly know that these are your views:
  • Experiencing the nibannic peace within is not Dukkha
  • Awareness of awareness is the final goal.
  • Buddha after re-discovering this aptly named this nibbana.

I wish you good luck with Dhamma :anjali:
.


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Self ...
  • "an entirely and perfectly foolish idea" :D ~ MN22

thepea
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Re: Awareness as the goal

Post by thepea » Sun Dec 22, 2019 4:06 pm

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote:
Sun Dec 22, 2019 3:07 pm
...
Please provide backup to your views with something from within this tradition as asked. Google searching awareness of awareness brings up a ton of non-related practices and meanings. I am trying to explain my personal understandings of this practice as I have come to experience and understand.
It is too easy to say “you are confused” , this is another thing to let go of when discussing nibannic “experience”.
I doubt you will find anything written or produced by SNG that will back your views regarding awareness.
SNG was not a buddhist, and did not teach Buddhism. Goenka Vipassana is not a Buddhist practice, not one morsel of this teaching is related to Buddhism. To think that it is, is wrong view. SNG understood the sphere of truth that is at the heart of all beings and all religion.
They are all pointing to this basic truth to realize. Buddhists want to use certain words and explanations to put a fence around this teachings, to own it as there own, that they alone are correct, they alone are masters of this ultimate truth. That every other practice/religion is pointing to an inferior state to this “nibannic sphere”
Rules for engagement in discussion, each created rule another fenceboard to protect this or that sect.
The bard fact is that Sayagyi u bah Khin and SNG do not care the least about protecting Buddhism. They care about dhamma and it’s purity, that’s it.
I have met christians/ Muslim’s/ advaidens/ buddhists and non religious types who are equally walking the path, and who have realized this basic inner truth and become happier people for this.
Getting caught up on the words of one monk from this or that tradition or “claiming that this person is only addressing or using this or that particular word as skillful speech while addressing a non buddhist audience is bullshit!
SNG used whatever words he chose to and believed, and he deliberately chose wordings that were inclusive to other traditions and religions to build his worldwide dhamma centres, which are 100% free from Buddhist propaganda. The inner circle of a Vipassana centre is Buddhist free, on the outer circle teachers and students are free to believe and follow this statue or that cross or whatever they prefer, but as is truth within each and everyone of us, so is the inner circle of a Vipassana centre it is pure and religion free.
So find me something from Sayagyi, SNG, or Ledi that contradicts this.
Why would goenka say experience this nibannic peace within if this was dukkha? He’s clearly pointing to God.
The all knowing ever present “awareness” within.
The “I am”.

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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: Awareness as the goal

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta » Sun Dec 22, 2019 4:33 pm

thepea wrote:
Sun Dec 22, 2019 4:06 pm
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote:
Sun Dec 22, 2019 3:07 pm
...
Please provide backup to your views with something from within this tradition as asked. Google searching awareness of awareness brings up a ton of non-related practices and meanings. I am trying to explain my personal understandings of this practice as I have come to experience and understand.
It is too easy to say “you are confused” , this is another thing to let go of when discussing nibannic “experience”.
I doubt you will find anything written or produced by SNG that will back your views regarding awareness.
SNG was not a buddhist, and did not teach Buddhism. Goenka Vipassana is not a Buddhist practice, not one morsel of this teaching is related to Buddhism. To think that it is, is wrong view. SNG understood the sphere of truth that is at the heart of all beings and all religion.
They are all pointing to this basic truth to realize. Buddhists want to use certain words and explanations to put a fence around this teachings, to own it as there own, that they alone are correct, they alone are masters of this ultimate truth. That every other practice/religion is pointing to an inferior state to this “nibannic sphere”
Rules for engagement in discussion, each created rule another fenceboard to protect this or that sect.
The bard fact is that Sayagyi u bah Khin and SNG do not care the least about protecting Buddhism. They care about dhamma and it’s purity, that’s it.
I have met christians/ Muslim’s/ advaidens/ buddhists and non religious types who are equally walking the path, and who have realized this basic inner truth and become happier people for this.
Getting caught up on the words of one monk from this or that tradition or “claiming that this person is only addressing or using this or that particular word as skillful speech while addressing a non buddhist audience is bullshit!
SNG used whatever words he chose to and believed, and he deliberately chose wordings that were inclusive to other traditions and religions to build his worldwide dhamma centres, which are 100% free from Buddhist propaganda. The inner circle of a Vipassana centre is Buddhist free, on the outer circle teachers and students are free to believe and follow this statue or that cross or whatever they prefer, but as is truth within each and everyone of us, so is the inner circle of a Vipassana centre it is pure and religion free.
So find me something from Sayagyi, SNG, or Ledi that contradicts this.
Why would goenka say experience this nibannic peace within if this was dukkha? He’s clearly pointing to God.
The all knowing ever present “awareness” within.
The “I am”.

Aha!



Now, I understand clearly that these are your views:
  • The inner circle of a Vipassana centre is Buddhist free...
  • Why would goenka say experience this nibannic peace within if this was dukkha?
    • He’s clearly pointing to God.
    • The all knowing ever present “awareness” within.
    • The “I am”.


Thank you for producing the following sentence. I genuinely feel very grateful especially to SNG for whatever method that worked for him to maintain in its "pristine state" as far as he can.
They care about dhamma and it’s purity, that’s it.

:heart:
.


🅢🅐🅑🅑🅔 🅓🅗🅐🅜🅜🅐 🅐🅝🅐🅣🅣🅐

Self ...
  • "an entirely and perfectly foolish idea" :D ~ MN22

thepea
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Re: Awareness as the goal

Post by thepea » Sun Dec 22, 2019 5:19 pm

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote:
Sat Dec 21, 2019 7:47 pm
In this article, SNG's explanation on awareness is "manipulated" to portray as a kind of eternalist view [not an uncommon stance found on tricycle] which his teacher nor his teacher's teachers didn't hold.
Ok, how is SNG’s explanation manipulated?

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