Awareness as the goal

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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befriend
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Awareness as the goal

Post by befriend » Wed Dec 18, 2019 2:14 am

I see the mind or awareness as not being affected it's like a clear light our self doesn't like or does like things but awareness is happy just resting in itself. i wonder if nirvana is like becoming this awareness having it saturated into your being/bones so often that you make it your home it's like indestructible.
Take care of mindfulness and mindfulness will take care of you.

SteRo
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Re: Awareness as the goal

Post by SteRo » Wed Dec 18, 2019 10:32 am

I always find it problematic if phenomena that might also be named as aggregates are perceived in such a pure idealistic way because in most cases the distance to some alleged pure self is not very long.

pegembara
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Re: Awareness as the goal

Post by pegembara » Wed Dec 18, 2019 2:16 pm

No. It's a trap.
"Monks, an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person might grow disenchanted with this body composed of the four great elements, might grow dispassionate toward it, might gain release from it. Why is that? Because the growth & decline, the taking up & putting down of this body composed of the four great elements are apparent. Thus the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person might grow disenchanted, might grow dispassionate, might gain release there.

"But as for what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness,' the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is unable to grow disenchanted with it, unable to grow dispassionate toward it, unable to gain release from it. Why is that? For a long time this has been relished, appropriated, and grasped by the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person as, 'This is me, this is my self, this is what I am.' Thus the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is unable to grow disenchanted with it, unable to grow dispassionate toward it, unable to gain release from it.
"It would be better for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person to hold to the body composed of the four great elements, rather than the mind, as the self. Why is that? Because this body composed of the four great elements is seen standing for a year, two years, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, a hundred years or more. But what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. Just as a monkey, swinging through a forest wilderness, grabs a branch. Letting go of it, it grabs another branch. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. In the same way, what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

sakyan
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Re: Awareness as the goal

Post by sakyan » Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:45 pm

Congrats on reaching the state where awareness seems just to be awareness i.e pure knowing without any liking or disliking.
With this state you are on a narrow bridge where only a few reach, if you fall on the wrong side you will fall into the view trap of eternalists who take 5 khandas as self. Here you will end up taking your awareness (consciousness) to be self.

But if you fall on the right side of the bridge by taking this pure awareness as your meditation object and see it as it is as Anicca, dukkha and anatta, arising and ceasing constantly every single moment which itself is a suffering, you will enter into the way of the Noble Ariyas of the old and enjoy the cool taste of nibbana.

You are on the brink of magga and phala provided you see this pure awareness truly in the 3 marks of anicca, dukkha and anatta as it is.

May you succeed!

befriend
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Re: Awareness as the goal

Post by befriend » Wed Dec 18, 2019 10:49 pm

I still get affected by liking and disliking I only know intellectually the mind is its own thing it can't be destroyed by liking and disliking it's like as a teacher put it throwing a can of paint in the sky thinking it will stick. I think that's just Buddhas teaching on the minds innate luminosity. I wish my mind didn't get affected by liking and disliking but I am far from that.
Take care of mindfulness and mindfulness will take care of you.

thepea
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Re: Awareness as the goal

Post by thepea » Wed Dec 18, 2019 11:21 pm

Awareness aware of awareness is the final goal.

SarathW
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Re: Awareness as the goal

Post by SarathW » Thu Dec 19, 2019 1:20 am

pegembara wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 2:16 pm
No. It's a trap.
"Monks, an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person might grow disenchanted with this body composed of the four great elements, might grow dispassionate toward it, might gain release from it. Why is that? Because the growth & decline, the taking up & putting down of this body composed of the four great elements are apparent. Thus the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person might grow disenchanted, might grow dispassionate, might gain release there.

"But as for what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness,' the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is unable to grow disenchanted with it, unable to grow dispassionate toward it, unable to gain release from it. Why is that? For a long time this has been relished, appropriated, and grasped by the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person as, 'This is me, this is my self, this is what I am.' Thus the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is unable to grow disenchanted with it, unable to grow dispassionate toward it, unable to gain release from it.
"It would be better for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person to hold to the body composed of the four great elements, rather than the mind, as the self. Why is that? Because this body composed of the four great elements is seen standing for a year, two years, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, a hundred years or more. But what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. Just as a monkey, swinging through a forest wilderness, grabs a branch. Letting go of it, it grabs another branch. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. In the same way, what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
:goodpost:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

pegembara
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Re: Awareness as the goal

Post by pegembara » Thu Dec 19, 2019 3:06 am

thepea wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 11:21 pm
Awareness aware of awareness is the final goal.
There is only the activity(verb) of knowing. No knower, only knowing.

Ajahn Sumedho has this to say-
‘Just like the question “Can you see your own eyes?”
Nobody can see their own eyes. I can see your eyes but I can’t see my eyes. I’m sitting right here, I’ve got two eyes and I can’t see them. But you can see my eyes. But there’s no need for me to see my eyes because I can see! It’s ridiculous, isn’t it? If I started saying “Why can’t I see my own eyes?” you’d think “Ajahn Sumedho’s really weird, isn’t he!”
Looking in a mirror you can see a reflection, but that’s not your eyes, it’s a reflection of your eyes. There’s no way that I’ve been able to look and see my own eyes. But then it’s not necessary to see your own eyes. It’s not necessary to know who it is that knows – because there’s knowing.’
~ Ajahn Sumedho, What is the Citta?, Forest Sangha Newsletter, Oct. ’88
Mahasi Sayadaw-
People generally believe that in the case of seeing, it is the eye which actually sees. They think that seeing and the eye are one and the same thing. They also think: "Seeing is I," "I see things," "The eye, seeing, and I are one and the same person." In reality this is not so. The eye is one thing and seeing is another, and there is no separate entity such as "I" or "ego." There is only the reality of seeing coming into being depending on the eye.
From Bahiya Sutta
In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how you should train yourself. When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bāhiya, there is no you in connection with that. When there is no you in connection with that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress."
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

JohnK
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Re: Awareness as the goal

Post by JohnK » Thu Dec 19, 2019 4:10 am

I thought the goal is the realization of the end of suffering through abandoning its cause -- for the mind to be liberated from the taints and to have the knowledge "it is liberated?"
How does "awareness as the goal" fit with this?
:anjali:
Those who grasp at perceptions & views wander the internet creating friction. [based on Sn4:9,v.847]

thepea
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Re: Awareness as the goal

Post by thepea » Thu Dec 19, 2019 12:05 pm

pegembara wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 3:06 am
thepea wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 11:21 pm
Awareness aware of awareness is the final goal.
There is only the activity(verb) of knowing. No knower, only knowing.
Mind the gaps.

auto
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Re: Awareness as the goal

Post by auto » Thu Dec 19, 2019 4:00 pm

pegembara wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 3:06 am
thepea wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 11:21 pm
Awareness aware of awareness is the final goal.
There is only the activity(verb) of knowing. No knower, only knowing.

Mahasi Sayadaw-
People generally believe that in the case of seeing, it is the eye which actually sees. They think that seeing and the eye are one and the same thing. They also think: "Seeing is I," "I see things," "The eye, seeing, and I are one and the same person." In reality this is not so. The eye is one thing and seeing is another, and there is no separate entity such as "I" or "ego." There is only the reality of seeing coming into being depending on the eye.
hmm,

Seeing is consciousness reality. Eyes are earth reality.
Sabba means the all, but it isn't category what includes sense-organs and their objects it is principle substance for them, it can be aroused by the I-thought or when being aware also thinking that "I am aware" will arose the substance. That substance is contact-ready through any of the sense organ, it is the ayatana. Ayatana has attabhava which can be reached, grasped and pulled(or let) into the body.

befriend
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Re: Awareness as the goal

Post by befriend » Thu Dec 19, 2019 4:37 pm

To Johnk i have heard different descriptions of nibbana i was unsure if awareness itself is the unconditioned nibbana or if seeing the 3 characteristics a lot would lead to dispassion towards the aggregates and ones mind would turn towards the deathless unconditioned nibbana
Take care of mindfulness and mindfulness will take care of you.

2600htz
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Re: Awareness as the goal

Post by 2600htz » Thu Dec 19, 2019 9:39 pm

befriend wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 2:14 am
I see the mind or awareness as not being affected it's like a clear light our self doesn't like or does like things but awareness is happy just resting in itself. i wonder if nirvana is like becoming this awareness having it saturated into your being/bones so often that you make it your home it's like indestructible.
Hello:

Yes in a way thats correct. The normal mind is affected with cravings, liking or disliking things.

A mind without cravings / or nibbana as living experience, is not agobiated by likes or dislikes, so its "pure impersonal awareness".

Its the basis for the advice the Buddha gave to Bāhiya to which he attained arahanship ( "you should train: in the seen, there will only be the seen,
in the cognized, only the cognized". )

But to experience only the seen in the seen, doesnt come into play just practicing awareness. There has to be a letting go of craving, a letting go of likes or dislikes that arise in the present moment. The destruction of the taints comes from directly seeing with wisdom, from understanding the process of arising and passing away of things, not from saturation.


Regards.

thepea
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Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Awareness as the goal

Post by thepea » Fri Dec 20, 2019 2:29 am

2600htz wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 9:39 pm

But to experience only the seen in the seen, doesnt come into play just practicing awareness. There has to be a letting go of craving, a letting go of likes or dislikes that arise in the present moment. The destruction of the taints comes from directly seeing with wisdom, from understanding the process of arising and passing away of things, not from saturation.


Regards.
What do you mean saturation?
I personally don’t see the reason for anyone to have a difficulty with awareness(sati) as the final goal.
When I mentioned “mind the gaps” this is exactly the practice of observing arising and passing away. You focus on the sensation and observe the changing nature. Indirectly we are minding the gaps.
As we approach subtler and subtler reality the gaps frequent. Nibbana is simply awareness of the gap, or awareness of awareness. When the purity of this experienced, the mystery or search for nibanna will be over, all questions answered, nibanna will be forever present to these individuals.

SteRo
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Re: Awareness as the goal

Post by SteRo » Fri Dec 20, 2019 5:58 am

befriend wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 4:37 pm
To Johnk i have heard different descriptions of nibbana i was unsure if awareness itself is the unconditioned nibbana or if seeing the 3 characteristics a lot would lead to dispassion towards the aggregates and ones mind would turn towards the deathless unconditioned nibbana
I apologize for intruding but "hearing different descriptions of nibbana" and attending, being unsure, speculating about nibbana ... all this is the jugglery of the clinging-aggregates. Dispassion towards this would be appropriate, wouldn't it?

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