Memory and conceit

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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sentinel
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Memory and conceit

Post by sentinel » Tue Dec 17, 2019 5:59 pm

What does the Buddha says about memory ? Does it has connection with conceit ?
“Three things cannot be long hidden: the sun, the moon, and the truth.” -Buddha

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cappuccino
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Re: Memory and conceit

Post by cappuccino » Tue Dec 17, 2019 6:35 pm

memory is another word for mindfulness

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DNS
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Re: Memory and conceit

Post by DNS » Tue Dec 17, 2019 8:47 pm

I believe memory comes under the aggregate of saññā (perception and memory).

I'm not sure what conceit would have to do with that, unless you're referring to someone who is boastful about their memory? Or do you mean that memory and frequently recalling memorable events leads to I making?

sentinel
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Re: Memory and conceit

Post by sentinel » Wed Dec 18, 2019 2:42 am

DNS wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 8:47 pm
I believe memory comes under the aggregate of saññā (perception and memory).

I'm not sure what conceit would have to do with that, unless you're referring to someone who is boastful about their memory? Or do you mean that memory and frequently recalling memorable events leads to I making?
Yes, I was listening to a youtube video , the guy says if you have a comparison between you and someone else , naturally there is a process of withdrawing from the memory i.e. to identify that "this" is me or I and "that" is you .
Without the functioning of memory no "I" would arise .
“Three things cannot be long hidden: the sun, the moon, and the truth.” -Buddha

SteRo
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Re: Memory and conceit

Post by SteRo » Wed Dec 18, 2019 10:25 am

But the opposite is applicable as well: without memory I making could not be abandoned because one could not recall teachings or suttas.

sentinel
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Re: Memory and conceit

Post by sentinel » Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:46 pm

SteRo wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 10:25 am
But the opposite is applicable as well: without memory I making could not be abandoned because one could not recall teachings or suttas.
The self arises because of memory , but I don't understand how abandoning of self have to do with memory ?
“Three things cannot be long hidden: the sun, the moon, and the truth.” -Buddha

SteRo
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Re: Memory and conceit

Post by SteRo » Wed Dec 18, 2019 1:04 pm

sentinel wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:46 pm
SteRo wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 10:25 am
But the opposite is applicable as well: without memory I making could not be abandoned because one could not recall teachings or suttas.
The self arises because of memory , but I don't understand how abandoning of self have to do with memory ?
? I have written "without memory I making could not be abandoned because one could not recall teachings or suttas" How would you abandon self if you could not have memory of teachings and suttas about abandoning self?

chownah
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Re: Memory and conceit

Post by chownah » Wed Dec 18, 2019 2:06 pm

sentinel wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:46 pm
The self arises because of memory , but I don't understand how abandoning of self have to do with memory ?
Maybe dependent origination indicates the cause of the arising of the concept of self.....of course DO does not mention memory or self directly. Some people say that the concept of self arising is what "becoming" is all about....some people say that memory is a function of the mind which is part of the six sense media.
And what is dependent co-arising? From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.
I don't have an opinion on the relationship between memory and concept of self.....although it does seem to me that without memory we would be totally disoriented....it would be difficult to avoid danger and stay alive....
chownah

santa100
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Re: Memory and conceit

Post by santa100 » Wed Dec 18, 2019 2:25 pm

sentinel wrote:I was listening to a youtube video , the guy says if you have a comparison between you and someone else , naturally there is a process of withdrawing from the memory i.e. to identify that "this" is me or I and "that" is you .
Without the functioning of memory no "I" would arise.
Memory is like a tool performing some function. It's how one applies it that makes it wholesome or not. A memory all about "I", "mine", or "myself" would obviously have connection with conceit, but a memory about Sila/Samadhi/Panna, or to always return to the breaths in the moment is very wholesome and plays a crucial role in making progress on the Path.

Pulsar
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Re: Memory and conceit

Post by Pulsar » Wed Dec 18, 2019 2:46 pm

Quite an interesting thread...I have no answer, since I have not thought about it... but this comment 
"I don't have an opinion on the relationship between memory and concept of self.....although it does seem to me that without memory we would be totally disoriented....it would be difficult to avoid danger and stay alive....chownah"
Reading above, I had to say something ...without getting myself in a jam...regarding
"relationship between memory and concept of self"

well this is easily resolved when one thinks of an Arahant. She/he has not lost her/his memory even though she/he has lost the concept of self, right?
With love :candle:

Pulsar
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Re: Memory and conceit

Post by Pulsar » Wed Dec 18, 2019 3:06 pm

I am still left with what DNS said 
"I believe memory comes under the aggregate of saññā (perception and memory)"
seemingly true, but can we pigeonhole it, in this manner? not that you did that, 
I am thinking out aloud here. It seems the third aggregate has to rely on the consciousness aggregate for past information gathered from eye, ear etc, (i.e. memory) before the sanna or what I call a fleeting signal becomes an ideation.
I get all discombobulated thinking about this, but this is also Dhmmavicaya, second factor of the seven allies of enlightenment. It is not always easy to figure out Dhamma. 
It becomes like quantum mechanics, one has to be pretty open, and not hold onto rigid ideas.
Can you pin down the electron? Likewise can you pin down the feeling emerging from contact of dependent origination or pin down sanna? since these things split into pleasant, unpleasant and indeterminate right away.
How are vedana and sanna determined as pleasant vs unpleasant without the aid of memory? 
it is all cute and neat, like having to figure out a pretty thing? but worth exploring when curious minds gather together.
No wonder folks had to resort to Abhidhamma to figure out Buddha's teachings, once he passed away and the earliest thinkers did so brilliantly. 
Personally I think consciousness is like a shape shifter. At one nano second, it is acting as feeling, next sanna and so on and so forth. According to abhidhamma, only a Buddha can tell these apart, by tasting the ocean of consciousness, its waters, whether that particular drop came from Ganges (Feeling) or Yamuna (sanna) etc... Memory floats in the ocean of consciousness.
Be well  :candle:

Pulsar
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Re: Memory and conceit

Post by Pulsar » Fri Jan 17, 2020 4:11 pm

In reply to DNS
I believe memory comes under the aggregate of saññā (perception and memory).
Pulsar wrote
No wonder folks had to resort to Abhidhamma to figure out Buddha's teachings, once he passed away and the earliest thinkers did so brilliantly.
Personally I think consciousness is like a shape shifter. At one nano second, it is acting as feeling, next sanna and so on and so forth. According to abhidhamma, only a Buddha can tell these apart, by tasting the ocean of consciousness, its waters, whether that particular drop came from Ganges (Feeling) or Yamuna (sanna) etc... Memory floats in the ocean of consciousness.
sometime later I felt I should not have said it quite so...and before I posted anything else, anywhere else, i
wanted to apologize for this.

Now I understand Nama-rupa better, after reading Maryla Falk. She has written an amazingly revealing book
on "Nama-rupa and Dhamma-rupa; Origin and aspects of an ancient Indian conception"
It is well worth reading, is found on Amazon, not an easy read. However it is a critical read. She is a scholar who truly has meditated.
It might be more difficult for a non-meditator to grasp her ideas.

While I realize there were brilliant abhidhammikas, ideas of some of them turned out to be misleading, as misleading as some of the contradictory passages in the canon.
I disagree with the notion only a Buddha can tell vedana and sanna apart, Obviously a meditator can tell Vedana apart, (2nd satipatthana) and Sannna apart, (3rd satipatthana) hence such abidhamma thought is incorrect.
Thanks to the various stimulatory discussions happening in DW, it makes me think outside the box.
Once Dinsdale mentioned on a thread I forget where .."difference between cognition and consciousness???" is not explained. These words are used interchangeably at times, it is true.
I had not stopped thinking about that comment.

When I wrote "Personally I think consciousness is like a shape shifter" it was my own struggle to understand
the difference between cognition and consciousness, but commenting on it helped
me better my own thinking.
So thanks for the thread, it is appreciated :candle:

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