Off shoots of greed, hatred, delusions

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form
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Off shoots of greed, hatred, delusions

Post by form »

Are they jealousy, conceit, ambition, lethargy, arrogance? Source; Noble eightfold path by Bhikkhu Bodhi, page 9.

What does lethargy means in this circumstances?
JohnK
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Re: Off shoots of greed, hatred, delusions

Post by JohnK »

From Wikipedia FWIW emphasis added https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kleshas_(Buddhism)
Abhidhamma: Ten defilements and unwholesome roots
While the Sutta Pitaka does not offer a list of kilesa, the Abhidhamma Pitaka's Dhammasangani (Dhs. 1229ff.) and Vibhanga (Vbh. XII) as well as in the post-canonical Visuddhimagga (Vsm. XXII 49, 65) enumerate ten defilements (dasa kilesa-vatthūni) as follows:

greed (lobha)
hate (dosa)
delusion (moha)
conceit (māna)
wrong views (micchāditthi)
doubt (vicikicchā)
torpor (thīnaṃ)
restlessness (uddhaccaṃ)
shamelessness (ahirikaṃ)
recklessness (anottappaṃ)
Those who grasp at perceptions & views wander the internet creating friction. [based on Sn4:9,v.847]
JohnK
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Re: Off shoots of greed, hatred, delusions

Post by JohnK »

Wiki quote above shows torpor as thinam.
That looks incorrect as A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma (Cetasika section) shows sloth as thina; torpor as middha. It says they always occur in conjunction (hence the single hindrance called "sloth and torpor"), so perhaps BB was using "lethargy" to cover both -- if so, I don't know if there is any precedent for that.
(Probably splitting hairs -- where is the icon for that?)

Edit:
As I have the "Comprehensive Manual" in front of me, I'll list the Unwholesome Factors which include greed, hatred and delusion (the others are generally considered to be based on these three -- as their "off shoots"):
Delusion
Shamelessness
Fearlessness of wrongdoing
Restlessness
Greed
Wrong view
Conceit
Hatred
Envy
Avarice
Worry
Sloth
Torpor
Doubt
(Nothing there that seems like "lethargy" except for sloth and torpor as mentioned.)
Those who grasp at perceptions & views wander the internet creating friction. [based on Sn4:9,v.847]
form
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Re: Off shoots of greed, hatred, delusions

Post by form »

JohnK wrote: Sun Dec 15, 2019 5:44 pm Wiki quote above shows torpor as thinam.
That looks incorrect as A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma (Cetasika section) shows sloth as thina; torpor as middha. It says they always occur in conjunction (hence the single hindrance called "sloth and torpor"), so perhaps BB was using "lethargy" to cover both -- if so, I don't know if there is any precedent for that.
(Probably splitting hairs -- where is the icon for that?)

Edit:
As I have the "Comprehensive Manual" in front of me, I'll list the Unwholesome Factors which include greed, hatred and delusion (the others are generally considered to be based on these three -- as their "off shoots"):
Delusion
Shamelessness
Fearlessness of wrongdoing
Restlessness
Greed
Wrong view
Conceit
Hatred
Envy
Avarice
Worry
Sloth
Torpor
Doubt
(Nothing there that seems like "lethargy" except for sloth and torpor as mentioned.)
Let me ask bhante bodhi on that.
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Kim OHara
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Re: Off shoots of greed, hatred, delusions

Post by Kim OHara »

Seeing "sloth" on the list reminded me of the Christians' Seven Deadly Sins, simply because it's such a rare word in our lives today. Here they are:
• 1 Lust
• 2 Gluttony
• 3 Greed
• 4 Sloth
• 5 Wrath
• 6 Envy
• 7 Pride
:reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_deadly_sins

There's obviously quite a bit of overlap. Grouping closely-related terms, we see -
greed / gluttony / avarice
hatred / anger / wrath
sloth / torpor
pride / conceit

- on both lists.

The Buddhist list then has these others -
delusion / ignorance / wrong view
shamelessness / fearlessness of wrongdoing
restlessness
worry / doubt

- but not lust and envy, which are specific to the Christian list.

:coffee:
Kim
JohnK
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Re: Off shoots of greed, hatred, delusions

Post by JohnK »

form wrote: Sun Dec 15, 2019 8:55 pm Let me ask bhante bodhi on that.
Cool! :!:
Those who grasp at perceptions & views wander the internet creating friction. [based on Sn4:9,v.847]
JohnK
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Re: Off shoots of greed, hatred, delusions

Post by JohnK »

Kim OHara wrote: Sun Dec 15, 2019 10:15 pm ...
There's obviously quite a bit of overlap. Grouping closely-related terms, we see -
greed / gluttony / avarice
hatred / anger / wrath
sloth / torpor
pride / conceit

- on both lists.

The Buddhist list then has these others -
delusion / ignorance / wrong view
shamelessness / fearlessness of wrongdoing
restlessness
worry / doubt

- but not lust and envy, which are specific to the Christian list.

:coffee:
Kim
In Buddhist texts/translations, lust often goes with greed (alternative translations of lobha, I think), and lust may not specifically suggest a sexual desire) -- I guess Christians wanted to be sure sexual lust had it's own category for special emphasis!

Envy seems like a sub-catergory of greed (maybe with some ill-will mixed in -- such mixing is not Abhidhammic as I have just been reading).

Seems like the deadly sins presume shamelessness and/or fearlessness of wrongdoing -- or that the deadly sins overpower such.
Those who grasp at perceptions & views wander the internet creating friction. [based on Sn4:9,v.847]
form
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Re: Off shoots of greed, hatred, delusions

Post by form »

JohnK wrote: Sun Dec 15, 2019 11:18 pm
Kim OHara wrote: Sun Dec 15, 2019 10:15 pm ...
There's obviously quite a bit of overlap. Grouping closely-related terms, we see -
greed / gluttony / avarice
hatred / anger / wrath
sloth / torpor
pride / conceit

- on both lists.

The Buddhist list then has these others -
delusion / ignorance / wrong view
shamelessness / fearlessness of wrongdoing
restlessness
worry / doubt

- but not lust and envy, which are specific to the Christian list.

:coffee:
Kim
In Buddhist texts/translations, lust often goes with greed (alternative translations of lobha, I think), and lust may not specifically suggest a sexual desire) -- I guess Christians wanted to be sure sexual lust had it's own category for special emphasis!

Envy seems like a sub-catergory of greed (maybe with some ill-will mixed in -- such mixing is not Abhidhammic as I have just been reading).

Seems like the deadly sins presume shamelessness and/or fearlessness of wrongdoing -- or that the deadly sins overpower such.
Bodhi has explained the offshoots quite clearly in several section of his book. I think he mentioned with reference that sexual is most formidable form of lust. The only thing I do not understand is a practical explanation on lethargy as off shoot of defilement..
JohnK
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Re: Off shoots of greed, hatred, delusions

Post by JohnK »

form wrote: Mon Dec 16, 2019 12:04 am ...The only thing I do not understand is a practical explanation on lethargy as off shoot of defilement..
Ah, I think most likely an offshoot of delusion/ignorance. For example, if ignorant of the Four Noble Truths (i.e. not knowing the source of one's suffering/stress and that there s a way out), one could be lethargic in response to one's dukkha -- just drifting along with no energy directed to awakening.
A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma says that the proximtae cause of both sloth and torpor is "unwise attention to boredom, drowsiness, etc." This unwise attention seems like a type of ignornace, for example, not seeing drowsiness for what it is, not attending to it as a conditioned phenomenon, but giving in to it; identifying with it -- resulting in lethargy vs. mindfulness, alertness.
Those who grasp at perceptions & views wander the internet creating friction. [based on Sn4:9,v.847]
JohnK
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Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 11:06 pm
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Re: Off shoots of greed, hatred, delusions

Post by JohnK »

form wrote: Mon Dec 16, 2019 12:04 am The only thing I do not understand is a practical explanation on lethargy as off shoot of defilement..
After a bit more thought, (and referring back to the CMA quote above), both greed and aversion can be a cause of the "unwise attention" that is the proximate cause of lethargy -- that is another path from roots to that offshoot. One example: Aversion to drowsiness implies unwise attention to it. So, the drowsiness in itself is not an off-shoot of the unwholesome roots. (I suppose there could also be greed for drowsiness -- wanting to "space out" -- that would also result in unwise attention to it.)
:anjali:
Those who grasp at perceptions & views wander the internet creating friction. [based on Sn4:9,v.847]
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