bhāvitakāyo as developing physical endurance ?

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sentinel
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bhāvitakāyo as developing physical endurance ?

Post by sentinel » Wed Dec 04, 2019 2:42 am

What would the "body" here referring to ?
How does one develop the Physical endurance ?



https://suttacentral.net/an3.100/en/sujato
A person who hasn’t developed their physical endurance, ethics, mind, or wisdom. They’re small-minded and mean-spirited, living in suffering.
Idha pana, bhikkhave, ekacco puggalo abhāvitakāyo hoti abhāvitasīlo abhāvitacitto abhāvitapañño paritto appātumo appadukkhavihārī.

https://suttacentral.net/an3.100/en/thanissaro
There is the case where a certain individual is developed in [contemplating] the body, developed in virtue, developed in mind, developed in discernment: unrestricted, large-hearted, dwelling with the immeasurable.
知人者智,自知者明。胜人有力,自胜者强。知足者富,强行有志。不失其所者久,死而不亡者寿。

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cappuccino
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Re: bhāvitakāyo as developing physical endurance ?

Post by cappuccino » Wed Dec 04, 2019 2:50 am

contemplating the body is to see its emptiness

the body is empty of a self or anything pertaining to a self
Last edited by cappuccino on Wed Dec 04, 2019 3:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

form
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Re: bhāvitakāyo as developing physical endurance ?

Post by form » Wed Dec 04, 2019 3:01 am

Becoming less pampered, capable of ensuring hardship

chownah
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Re: bhāvitakāyo as developing physical endurance ?

Post by chownah » Wed Dec 04, 2019 4:11 am

form wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 3:01 am
Becoming less pampered, capable of ensuring hardship
You presented two different translations which give entirely different meanings. "Physical endurance" does not mean "less pampered, capable of enduring hardship".....it means to be able to exert physical effort for long periods of time. Notice that sujato uses "or" in his list which in english means that one may take any single item on the list and any single item on that list will create the result which is "They’re small-minded and mean-spirited, living in suffering." So....does this make sense?.....did the buddha every in any way indicate that the physical condition of the body (with the exception of perhaps illness) was of much importance at all?....I don't recall every seeing anything in the suttas which indicates this....it seems to me that the suttas are notable in that they contain nothing about the physical condition of the body.....it seems to me preposterous to translate this sutta in a way that indicates in english that not pursuing the development of physical endurance would lead to being "small-minded and mean-spirited, living in suffering" when nothing at all like this is found in any other place in the suttas. I think that unless someone can come up with some plausible sutta basis for the importance of physical conditioning then I think that sujato has done a disservice to the community with his translation which seems to bring an english meaning or idea not contained in the suttas. Not wanting to bash sujato but to me it does seem that his "innovative" translations of many things are off the mark and misleading.....but perhaps it is my lack of knowledge which brings me to this view.
chownah

form
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Re: bhāvitakāyo as developing physical endurance ?

Post by form » Wed Dec 04, 2019 4:32 am

chownah wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 4:11 am
form wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 3:01 am
Becoming less pampered, capable of ensuring hardship
You presented two different translations which give entirely different meanings. "Physical endurance" does not mean "less pampered, capable of enduring hardship".....it means to be able to exert physical effort for long periods of time. Notice that sujato uses "or" in his list which in english means that one may take any single item on the list and any single item on that list will create the result which is "They’re small-minded and mean-spirited, living in suffering." So....does this make sense?.....did the buddha every in any way indicate that the physical condition of the body (with the exception of perhaps illness) was of much importance at all?....I don't recall every seeing anything in the suttas which indicates this....it seems to me that the suttas are notable in that they contain nothing about the physical condition of the body.....it seems to me preposterous to translate this sutta in a way that indicates in english that not pursuing the development of physical endurance would lead to being "small-minded and mean-spirited, living in suffering" when nothing at all like this is found in any other place in the suttas. I think that unless someone can come up with some plausible sutta basis for the importance of physical conditioning then I think that sujato has done a disservice to the community with his translation which seems to bring an english meaning or idea not contained in the suttas. Not wanting to bash sujato but to me it does seem that his "innovative" translations of many things are off the mark and misleading.....but perhaps it is my lack of knowledge which brings me to this view.
chownah
OK. U meant endurance to train and progress.

It crosses my mind now that it could mean not distracted or affected by physical or mental discomfort.

chownah
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Re: bhāvitakāyo as developing physical endurance ?

Post by chownah » Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:51 am

form wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 4:32 am
chownah wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 4:11 am
form wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 3:01 am
Becoming less pampered, capable of ensuring hardship
You presented two different translations which give entirely different meanings. "Physical endurance" does not mean "less pampered, capable of enduring hardship".....it means to be able to exert physical effort for long periods of time. Notice that sujato uses "or" in his list which in english means that one may take any single item on the list and any single item on that list will create the result which is "They’re small-minded and mean-spirited, living in suffering." So....does this make sense?.....did the buddha every in any way indicate that the physical condition of the body (with the exception of perhaps illness) was of much importance at all?....I don't recall every seeing anything in the suttas which indicates this....it seems to me that the suttas are notable in that they contain nothing about the physical condition of the body.....it seems to me preposterous to translate this sutta in a way that indicates in english that not pursuing the development of physical endurance would lead to being "small-minded and mean-spirited, living in suffering" when nothing at all like this is found in any other place in the suttas. I think that unless someone can come up with some plausible sutta basis for the importance of physical conditioning then I think that sujato has done a disservice to the community with his translation which seems to bring an english meaning or idea not contained in the suttas. Not wanting to bash sujato but to me it does seem that his "innovative" translations of many things are off the mark and misleading.....but perhaps it is my lack of knowledge which brings me to this view.
chownah
OK. U meant endurance to train and progress.

It crosses my mind now that it could mean not distracted or affected by physical or mental discomfort.
What I mean is that based on the usual meanings of english sujato seems to be saying that being unable to sustain physical exertion for long periods will result in being "small-minded and mean-spirited, living in suffering" and that there is nothing in the suttas that I know about that talks about this and also I mean that IF being unable to sustain physical exertion was so important in avoiding being "small-minded and mean-spirited, living in suffering" then it would be mentioned and probably quite often BUT it seems that it is not mentioned AT ALL.

If you think that the pali should be interpreted to mean "not distracted or affected by physical or mental discomfort" then you should use those words and not be using the english words "physical endurance" to translate it since these are two different things entirely.....but please note that I do not think that "not distracted or affected by physical or mental discomfort" is an especially good translation of the pali (although I think it is better than "physical endurance") and frankly I don't especially like thanissaro's translation even though it is the one which resonates most with me.....BUT....note that thanissaro puts "contemplation" in brackets to clearly show that this is him interjecting something of his own onto the pali words so that we can be warned of possible bias....
chownah

sentinel
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Re: bhāvitakāyo as developing physical endurance ?

Post by sentinel » Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:04 am

Dhammanando wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:25 am
......
Bhante , could you help to explain for us with my question above ?

Thanks
知人者智,自知者明。胜人有力,自胜者强。知足者富,强行有志。不失其所者久,死而不亡者寿。

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Dhammanando
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Re: bhāvitakāyo as developing physical endurance ?

Post by Dhammanando » Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:18 am

sentinel wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:04 am
Bhante , could you help to explain for us with my question above ?
I'm travelling today, so can't consult my books. Just going from memory, I believe bhāvitakāyo and abhāvitakāyo are defined in the commentaries as possessing/lacking restraint with regard to the five bodily doors; in other words, indriyasaṃvara and the lack of this.
“Keep to your own pastures, bhikkhus, walk in the haunts where your fathers roamed.
If ye thus walk in them, Māra will find no lodgement, Māra will find no foothold.”
— Cakkavattisīhanāda Sutta

sunnat
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Re: bhāvitakāyo as developing physical endurance ?

Post by sunnat » Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:36 am

'Bhikkhus, this is the one and the only way for the purification (of the minds) of beings, for overcoming sorrow and lamentation, for the cessation of physical and mental pain, for attainment of the Noble Paths. and for the realisation of Nibbàna. That (only way) is the four satipaññhànas.

What are these four? Here (in this teaching), bhikkhus, a bhikkhu (i.e. a disciple) dwells perceiving again and again the body...
'

Here in the maha satipatthana sutta 'dwells percieving again and again' is about having endurance. (persistence, patience). Lack of endurance ensures the continuation of an impure mind and suffering.

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Sam Vara
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Re: bhāvitakāyo as developing physical endurance ?

Post by Sam Vara » Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:28 am

An alternative reading might be that the kāya part means a body or group of different types of development. The person in question is developed in virtue (bhāvitasīlo), developed in mind (bhāvitacitto) and developed in discernment (bhāvitapañño), which together constitute a group or mass of development. So it's not really about the physical body at all.

This seems to fit with the fact that in this passage there are three further characteristics listed which apply to the developed person. The development in virtue means they are not little or restricted (aparitto); the development in mind means they are great (mahatto); and the development of discernment means they are boundless or measureless (appamāṇo). Had physical development (bhāvitakāyo) been intended as a separate category, there would have been a fourth characteristic of a developed person, so it might be that there are three types of development which are introduced as a "body".

Whether or not that is a viable reading of the Pali or is in accordance with commentaries, I'll leave to those who are better informed on such topics.

form
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Re: bhāvitakāyo as developing physical endurance ?

Post by form » Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:52 am

Body = form

As one interpretation of name and form, i.e. mind and body.

form
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Re: bhāvitakāyo as developing physical endurance ?

Post by form » Wed Dec 04, 2019 11:28 am

chownah wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:51 am
form wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 4:32 am
chownah wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 4:11 am

You presented two different translations which give entirely different meanings. "Physical endurance" does not mean "less pampered, capable of enduring hardship".....it means to be able to exert physical effort for long periods of time. Notice that sujato uses "or" in his list which in english means that one may take any single item on the list and any single item on that list will create the result which is "They’re small-minded and mean-spirited, living in suffering." So....does this make sense?.....did the buddha every in any way indicate that the physical condition of the body (with the exception of perhaps illness) was of much importance at all?....I don't recall every seeing anything in the suttas which indicates this....it seems to me that the suttas are notable in that they contain nothing about the physical condition of the body.....it seems to me preposterous to translate this sutta in a way that indicates in english that not pursuing the development of physical endurance would lead to being "small-minded and mean-spirited, living in suffering" when nothing at all like this is found in any other place in the suttas. I think that unless someone can come up with some plausible sutta basis for the importance of physical conditioning then I think that sujato has done a disservice to the community with his translation which seems to bring an english meaning or idea not contained in the suttas. Not wanting to bash sujato but to me it does seem that his "innovative" translations of many things are off the mark and misleading.....but perhaps it is my lack of knowledge which brings me to this view.
chownah
OK. U meant endurance to train and progress.

It crosses my mind now that it could mean not distracted or affected by physical or mental discomfort.
What I mean is that based on the usual meanings of english sujato seems to be saying that being unable to sustain physical exertion for long periods will result in being "small-minded and mean-spirited, living in suffering" and that there is nothing in the suttas that I know about that talks about this and also I mean that IF being unable to sustain physical exertion was so important in avoiding being "small-minded and mean-spirited, living in suffering" then it would be mentioned and probably quite often BUT it seems that it is not mentioned AT ALL.

If you think that the pali should be interpreted to mean "not distracted or affected by physical or mental discomfort" then you should use those words and not be using the english words "physical endurance" to translate it since these are two different things entirely.....but please note that I do not think that "not distracted or affected by physical or mental discomfort" is an especially good translation of the pali (although I think it is better than "physical endurance") and frankly I don't especially like thanissaro's translation even though it is the one which resonates most with me.....BUT....note that thanissaro puts "contemplation" in brackets to clearly show that this is him interjecting something of his own onto the pali words so that we can be warned of possible bias....
chownah
Pali to English translation is always very crude due to the wide cultural gap. It gives an approximate meaning of the original and different versions tend to have certain advantages and disadvantages. Different audience will tend to like a certain version better than another due to different mental make up. For example, the same pali word has been translated to wholesome later, but translated to profitable earlier. Profitable seems to ring a bell in me. So in fact I like crude sounding translation, the more crude it seems the better it reflects the original meaning.

2600htz
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Re: bhāvitakāyo as developing physical endurance ?

Post by 2600htz » Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:09 pm

Hello:

No idea, i guess you could call "physical endurance" being restrained in body.

Regards.

chownah
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Re: bhāvitakāyo as developing physical endurance ?

Post by chownah » Wed Dec 04, 2019 1:48 pm

form wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 11:28 am
Pali to English translation is always very crude due to the wide cultural gap.
I agree with this in some cases....although sometimes the translation is not so crude.

Because of the wide cultural gap it is important that at least on the english side the translation would be something which can be seen to express SOMETHING like what the pali suggests.....so far no one in my estimation has suggested that the english meaning of "physical endurance" fits with the known meanings of the pali which it is meant to represent.

ON THE ONE HAND it might be that some people might give up on the real meaning of "physical endurance" and come up with something more likely to be the pali meaning (like 2600hz redefining "physical endurance" as meaning "restrained in body")but given that the english language is very expressive should we rely on someone having to concoct by guesswork what the sutta means?.....ON THE OTHER HAND there are probably people who will take it at face value and start thinking that the buddha wants us to train like long distance runners or boxers etc.

There is no need for this ambiguity because of the english....so far from what people have presented here it seems that "physical endurance" is simply inappropriate in that no one here is trying to apply the real english meaning of "physical endurance" as being meaningful in the sutta.
chownah

santa100
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Re: bhāvitakāyo as developing physical endurance ?

Post by santa100 » Wed Dec 04, 2019 2:00 pm

sentinel wrote:What would the "body" here referring to ?
How does one develop the Physical endurance ?
By taking up bodybuilding an develop muscle hypertrophy...just kidding. It's about the Dhammic stamina/endurance to withstand all sorts of sensual pleasure's assault on the body. Ven. Bodhi's note from "Numerical Discourses":
Mp does not comment on abhavitakaya, but Spk II 395,16 glosses it as abhavitapañcadvarikakaya, 'undeveloped in the body of the five sense doors', probably referring to sense restraint. I suspect the term actually refers to the maintenance of clear comprehension in all modes of deportment and in the various bodily activities, as described at AN II 210,21-26 and V 206,25-30.

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