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Re: Sutta where the Buddha declares that everything is dependently originated?

Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 6:27 am
by SteRo
DooDoot wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 4:12 am
SteRo wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 1:31 pm
...in order to refer to a generic view of momentary arising we should have a third party definition (scriptural or commentary) that is commonly or unanimously accepted as "view of momentary arising" proper.
The momentary arising described below?
There is the case where an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person — who has no regard for noble ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard for men of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma — assumes form to be the self. That assumption is a fabrication. Now what is the cause, what is the origination, what is the birth, what is the coming-into-existence of that fabrication? To an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person, touched by that which is felt born of contact with ignorance, craving arises. That fabrication is born of that. And that fabrication is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen. That craving... That feeling... That contact... That ignorance is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
The momentary arising described below?
On seeing a form with the eye, he lusts after it if it is pleasing; he dislikes it if it is unpleasing. He abides with mindfulness of the body unestablished, with a limited mind, and he does not understand as it actually is the deliverance of mind and deliverance by wisdom wherein those evil unwholesome states cease without remainder. Engaged as he is in favouring and opposing, whatever feeling he feels—whether pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant—he delights in that feeling, welcomes it, and remains holding to it. As he does so, delight arises in him. Now delight in feelings is clinging. With his clinging as condition, being comes to be; with being as condition, birth; with birth as condition, ageing and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair come to be. Such is the origin of this whole mass of suffering.

On hearing a sound with the earOn smelling an odour with the noseOn tasting a flavour with the tongueOn touching a tangible with the bodyOn cognizing a mind-object with the mind, he lusts after it if it is pleasing; he dislikes it if it is unpleasing…Now delight in feelings is clinging. With his clinging as condition, being comes to be; with being as condition, birth; with birth as condition, ageing and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair come to be. Such is the origin of this whole mass of suffering.

https://suttacentral.net/mn38/en/bodhi
I posted many scriptures here.
These are nice quotes, thank you, but I cannot see any evidence for the momentary arising which has been the topic of my conversation with chownah.

Anyway, since I have had this conversation with chownah I think it would be most appropriate to have chownah provide a scriptural or commentarial source because I don't want to start now a conversation with you about a possibly different kind of momentary arising.

Re: Sutta where the Buddha declares that everything is dependently originated?

Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 8:54 am
by DooDoot
SteRo wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 6:27 am
I don't want to start now a conversation with you about a possibly different kind of momentary arising.
No problem. Regards :smile:

Re: Sutta where the Buddha declares that everything is dependently originated?

Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 2:19 pm
by SteRo
https://suttacentral.net/mn121/en/sujato
They understand: ‘Here there is no stress due to the defilements of sensuality, desire to be reborn, or ignorance.
So there is no stress due to ignorance.
There is only this modicum of stress, namely that associated with the six sense fields dependent on this body and conditioned by life.’
But nevertheless there is this tiny bit of stress although there is no ignorance. That's fascinating, isn't it? Stress without ignorance. Stress due to body and life which are the conditions for the six sense fields.

Re: Sutta where the Buddha declares that everything is dependently originated?

Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 4:11 pm
by zan
DooDoot wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:38 am
zan wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 4:03 pm
Do any suttas support this view?
In already posted MN 28, which says the five aggregates subject to clinging are dependently originated.

SN 22.48 refers to two types of five aggregates: (i) mere aggregates; and (ii) aggregates subject to clinging.

Therefore, it appears MN 28 says only aggregates subject to clinging are dependently originated.

Regards :smile:
My hero!!!!!

Re: Sutta where the Buddha declares that everything is dependently originated?

Posted: Sat Dec 14, 2019 4:05 am
by chownah
zan wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 4:11 pm
DooDoot wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:38 am
zan wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 4:03 pm
Do any suttas support this view?
In already posted MN 28, which says the five aggregates subject to clinging are dependently originated.

SN 22.48 refers to two types of five aggregates: (i) mere aggregates; and (ii) aggregates subject to clinging.

Therefore, it appears MN 28 says only aggregates subject to clinging are dependently originated.

Regards :smile:
My hero!!!!!
I would point out that mn28 ONLY talks about clinging aggregates.
And, SN 22.48 Khandha Sutta: Aggregates defines both "aggregates" and "clinging-aggregates"....and since "clinging aggregates" are dependently originated (I think we all agree) it is the "aggregates" that we should consider.....and what are the five "aggregates"?.....funny you should ask because sn22.48 contains:
The Blessed One said, "Now what, monks, are the five aggregates?

"Whatever form is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: That is called the form aggregate.

"Whatever feeling is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: That is called the feeling aggregate.

"Whatever perception is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: That is called the perception aggregate.

"Whatever (mental) fabrications are past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: Those are called the fabrications aggregate.

"Whatever consciousness is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: That is called the consciousness aggregate.

"These are called the five aggregates.
So....I guess if you want to know if the five "aggregates" are dependently originated one should ask are form, feeling, perception, fabrications, and consciousness dependently originated?...one should ask that because this is the list of what the five "aggregates" are.
chownah

Re: Sutta where the Buddha declares that everything is dependently originated?

Posted: Sat Dec 14, 2019 2:41 pm
by chownah
In sn12.44 (Loka Sutta) [urlhttps://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn1 ... .than.html][/url] it says:
And what is the ending of the world? Dependent on the eye & forms there arises eye-consciousness. The meeting of the three is contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. Now, from the remainderless cessation & fading away of that very craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering. This is the ending of the world.
....while in SN 22.48 Khandha Sutta https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"And what are the five clinging-aggregates?

"Whatever form — past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near — is clingable, offers sustenance, and is accompanied with mental fermentation: That is called the form clinging-aggregate.

"Whatever feeling — past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near — is clingable, offers sustenance, and is accompanied with mental fermentation: That is called the feeling clinging-aggregate.

"Whatever perception — past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near — is clingable, offers sustenance, and is accompanied with mental fermentation: That is called the perception clinging-aggregate.

"Whatever (mental) fabrications — past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near — are clingable, offer sustenance, and are accompanied with mental fermentation: Those are called the fabrications clinging-aggregate.

"Whatever consciousness — past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near — is clingable, offers sustenance, and is accompanied with mental fermentation: That is called the consciousness clinging-aggregate.

"These are called the five clinging-aggregates."
.....so if you put them together is it saying in the Loka sutta that from the remainderless cessation & fading away of craving that clinging/sustenance fades away and then from the Khandha sutta is it the same clinging/sustenance which differentiates the "aggregates" from the "clinging-aggregates"?.....in other words if one can arrange for craving to fade then one result is that the clinging-aggregates "change" into just plain "aggregates"?
chownah

Re: Sutta where the Buddha declares that everything is dependently originated?

Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 3:09 am
by retrofuturist
Greetings,

Please note, some slightly off-topic posts have been moved &/or replicated to: Pin the Tail (View) on the Donkey

Metta,
Paul. :)

Re: Sutta where the Buddha declares that everything is dependently originated?

Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 12:08 pm
by SteRo
zan wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 4:11 pm
DooDoot wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:38 am
zan wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 4:03 pm
Do any suttas support this view?
In already posted MN 28, which says the five aggregates subject to clinging are dependently originated.

SN 22.48 refers to two types of five aggregates: (i) mere aggregates; and (ii) aggregates subject to clinging.

Therefore, it appears MN 28 says only aggregates subject to clinging are dependently originated.

Regards :smile:
My hero!!!!!
If one says "only aggregates subject to clinging are dependently originated" that's not problematic if one understands that DO does refer to dukkha exclusively. In that case it should be obvious that the "mere aggregates" must have arisen dependently nevertheless because otherwise those would be permanent.

Re: Sutta where the Buddha declares that everything is dependently originated?

Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 12:45 pm
by form
The use of the simile of seed, soil and nutrients said it all. Can it be otherwised?

One of the most important thing he taught is about impermanence, he said when the conditions are present, it is present, when conditions are not there, it is not present. So everything depends on conditions to be present.