Sutta where the Buddha declares that everything is dependently originated?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
zan
Posts: 984
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 1:57 pm

Sutta where the Buddha declares that everything is dependently originated?

Post by zan »

Is there such a sutta?

I know there are many where it is declared all things are temporary and without self, is there one that specifically says all things are dependently originated? Using the word "Pratītyasamutpāda (Pali for dependent origination)" and declaring that this word applies to literally everything?
I am just a learner. Keep that in mind when you read my words.

Just to be safe, assume all of my words could be incorrect. Look to an arahant for total accuracy and confirmation.
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 8610
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Sutta where the Buddha declares that everything is dependently originated?

Post by DooDoot »

zan wrote: Sun Dec 01, 2019 8:30 pmdependently originated
I have found the term "dependently originated" ("paṭiccasamuppanna") in 11 suttas.
#1 wrote:And what are the dependently originated phenomena?

Katame ca, bhikkhave, paṭiccasamuppannā dhammā?

Old age and death are impermanent, conditioned, dependently originated, liable to end, vanish, fade away, and cease.

Jarāmaraṇaṃ, bhikkhave, aniccaṃ saṅkhataṃ paṭiccasamuppannaṃ khayadhammaṃ vayadhammaṃ virāgadhammaṃ nirodhadhammaṃ.

Rebirth …

Jāti, bhikkhave, aniccā saṅkhatā paṭiccasamuppannā khayadhammā vayadhammā virāgadhammā nirodhadhammā.

Continued existence …

Bhavo, bhikkhave, anicco saṅkhato paṭiccasamuppanno khayadhammo vayadhammo virāgadhammo nirodhadhammo.
Grasping …

Upādānaṃ bhikkhave … pe …

Craving …

taṇhā, bhikkhave …

Feeling …

vedanā, bhikkhave …

Contact …

phasso, bhikkhave …

The six sense fields …

saḷāyatanaṃ, bhikkhave …

Name and form …

nāmarūpaṃ, bhikkhave …

Consciousness …

viññāṇaṃ, bhikkhave …

Choices [Formations] …

saṅkhārā, bhikkhave …

Ignorance is impermanent, conditioned, dependently originated, liable to end, vanish, fade away, and cease.

avijjā, bhikkhave, aniccā saṅkhatā paṭiccasamuppannā khayadhammā vayadhammā virāgadhammā nirodhadhammā.
These are called the dependently originated phenomena.

Ime vuccanti, bhikkhave, paṭiccasamuppannā dhammā.

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.20/en/sujato
#2 wrote:Here, bhikkhus, the uninstructed worldling, who is not a seer of the noble ones and is unskilled and undisciplined in their Dhamma, who is not a seer of superior persons and is unskilled and undisciplined in their Dhamma, regards form as self. That regarding, bhikkhus, is a formation. That formation—what is its source, what is its origin, from what is it born and produced? When the uninstructed worldling is contacted by a feeling born of ignorance-contact, craving arises: thence that formation is born.

“Thus, bhikkhus, that formation is impermanent, conditioned, dependently arisen; that craving is impermanent, conditioned, dependently arisen; that feeling is impermanent, conditioned, dependently arisen; that contact is impermanent, conditioned, dependently arisen; that ignorance is impermanent, conditioned, dependently arisen.

SN 22.81
#3 wrote:Bhikkhus, these three feelings are impermanent, conditioned, dependently arisen, subject to destruction, subject to vanishing, subject to fading away, subject to cessation. What three? Pleasant feeling, painful feeling, neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling. These three feelings are impermanent, conditioned, dependently arisen, subject to destruction, subject to vanishing, subject to fading away, subject to cessation.”

https://suttacentral.net/sn36.9/en/bodhi
#4 wrote:Pleasant, painful, and neutral feelings are impermanent, conditioned, dependently originated, liable to end, vanish, fade away, and cease.

Sukhāpi kho, aggivessana, vedanā aniccā saṅkhatā paṭiccasamuppannā khayadhammā vayadhammā virāgadhammā nirodhadhammā;

https://suttacentral.net/mn74/en/sujato
#5 wrote:that [wrong ignorant] view is created, conditioned, chosen, dependently originated.
Sā kho panesā diṭṭhi bhūtā saṅkhatā cetayitā paṭiccasamuppannā.

Anything that is created, conditioned, chosen, and dependently originated is impermanent.
Yaṃ kho pana kiñci bhūtaṃ saṅkhataṃ cetayitaṃ paṭiccasamuppannaṃ tadaniccaṃ.

https://suttacentral.net/an10.93/en/sujato
#6 wrote:But this contact is impermanent, conditioned, dependently originated.

Ayaṃ kho pana phasso anicco saṅkhato paṭiccasamuppanno.

So how could a pleasant feeling be permanent, since it has arisen dependent on contact that is impermanent, conditioned, and dependently originated?’

Aniccaṃ kho pana saṅkhataṃ paṭiccasamuppannaṃ phassaṃ paṭicca uppannā sukhā vedanā kuto niccā bhavissatī’ti.

https://suttacentral.net/sn36.8/en/sujato
#7 wrote:Pleasant feelings, painful feelings, and neutral feelings are all impermanent, conditioned, dependently originated, liable to end, vanish, fade away, and cease.

Sukhāpi kho, ānanda, vedanā aniccā saṅkhatā paṭiccasamuppannā khayadhammā vayadhammā virāgadhammā nirodhadhammā.

https://suttacentral.net/dn15/en/sujato
#8 wrote:In many ways the Buddha has said that consciousness is dependently originated, since consciousness does not arise without a cause.”

Anekapariyāyenāvuso sāti, paṭiccasamuppannaṃ viññāṇaṃ vuttaṃ bhagavatā, aññatra paccayā natthi viññāṇassa sambhavo”ti.

https://suttacentral.net/mn38/en/sujato
#9 wrote:While a mendicant is meditating like this—mindful, aware, diligent, keen, and resolute—if pleasant feelings arise, they understand: ‘A pleasant feeling has arisen in me. That’s dependent, not independent. Dependent on what? Dependent on my own body. But this body is impermanent, conditioned, dependently originated.

So how could a pleasant feeling be permanent, since it has arisen dependent on a body that is impermanent, conditioned and dependently originated?’. They meditate observing impermanence, vanishing, dispassion, cessation, and letting go in the body and pleasant feeling. As they do so, they give up the underlying tendency for greed for the body and pleasant feeling.

While a mendicant is meditating like this—mindful, aware, diligent, keen, and resolute—if painful feelings arise, they understand: ‘A painful feeling has arisen in me. That’s dependent, not independent. Dependent on what? Dependent on my own body. But this body is impermanent, conditioned, dependently originated. So how could a painful feeling be permanent, since it has arisen dependent on a body that is impermanent, conditioned, and dependently originated?’ They meditate observing impermanence, vanishing, dispassion, cessation, and letting go in the body and painful feeling. As they do so, they give up the underlying tendency for repulsion towards the body and painful feeling.

https://suttacentral.net/sn36.7/en/sujato
#10 wrote:And these five grasping aggregates are indeed dependently originated.

Paṭiccasamuppannā kho panime yadidaṃ pañcupādānakkhandhā.

https://suttacentral.net/mn28/en/sujato
:reading:

Also, another interesting sutta is SN 12.3, seldom referred to, which says Pratītyasamutpāda is the "wrong path":
“And what, bhikkhus, is the wrong way (micchāpaṭipadā)? With ignorance as condition, volitional formations come to be; with volitional formations as condition, consciousness…. Such is the origin of this whole mass of suffering. This, bhikkhus, is called the wrong way.

“And what, bhikkhus, is the right way (sammāpaṭipadā)? With the remainderless fading away and cessation of ignorance comes cessation of volitional formations; with the cessation of volitional formations, cessation of consciousness…. Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering. This, bhikkhus, is called the right way.”

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.3/en/bodhi
9 suttas from 11 were quoted above that use the term "dependently originated" (an adjective), which appear to related to the 12 conditions for the arising of dukkha. Also, SN 12.3 was quoted saying the 12 dependently originated conditions are the wrong path.

Therefore it appears the terms "dependently originated" (paṭiccasamuppanna - adjective) and "dependent origination" (paṭiccasamuppada - noun) may possibly not refer to the "conditionality" (idappaccayatā) applicable to the arising of the Noble Path (such as in SN 12.23). Keep in mind, the suttas say the Noble Path is "conditioned" (MN 44). Therefore, based on MN 44 & SN 12.3, it appears the Noble Eightfold Path is "conditioned" ("sankhata") but is not "dependently originated" ("paṭiccasamuppanna").

:smile:
Last edited by DooDoot on Mon Dec 02, 2019 2:06 am, edited 3 times in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 8610
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Sutta where the Buddha declares that everything is dependently originated?

Post by DooDoot »

zan wrote: Sun Dec 01, 2019 8:30 pmIs there such a sutta?
I think my previous post is conclusive about how the terms "dependent origination" and "dependently originated" were used by the Lord Buddha. However, to give Nargajuna some hope in this debate, I should post the 1 omitted sutta from the original 11 to examine what it might mean, namely:
#11 wrote:At Sāvatthī.
Sāvatthiyaṃ … ārāme.

Then Venerable Ānanda went up to the Buddha, bowed, sat down to one side, and said to the Buddha:

Atha kho āyasmā ānando yena bhagavā tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā bhagavantaṃ abhivādetvā ekamantaṃ nisīdi. Ekamantaṃ nisinno kho āyasmā ānando bhagavantaṃ etadavoca:

“Sir, they speak of ‘cessation’.
“‘nirodho nirodho’ti, bhante, vuccati.

The cessation of what things does this refer to?”
Katamesānaṃ kho, bhante, dhammānaṃ nirodho ‘nirodho’ti vuccatī”ti?

“Ānanda, form is impermanent, conditioned, dependently originated, liable to end, vanish, fade away, and cease.

“Rūpaṃ kho, ānanda, aniccaṃ saṅkhataṃ paṭiccasamuppannaṃ khayadhammaṃ vayadhammaṃ virāgadhammaṃ nirodhadhammaṃ.

Its cessation is what ‘cessation’ refers to.
Tassa nirodho ‘nirodho’ti vuccati.

Feeling …

Vedanā aniccā saṅkhatā paṭiccasamuppannā khayadhammā vayadhammā virāgadhammā nirodhadhammā.
Tassā nirodho ‘nirodho’ti vuccati.

Perception …
Saññā …

Choices …

saṅkhārā aniccā saṅkhatā paṭiccasamuppannā khayadhammā vayadhammā virāgadhammā nirodhadhammā.
Tesaṃ nirodho ‘nirodho’ti vuccati.

Consciousness is impermanent, conditioned, dependently originated, liable to end, vanish, fade away, and cease.

Viññāṇaṃ aniccaṃ saṅkhataṃ paṭiccasamuppannaṃ khayadhammaṃ vayadhammaṃ virāgadhammaṃ nirodhadhammaṃ.
Its cessation is what ‘cessation’ refers to.

Tassa nirodho ‘nirodho’ti vuccati.

When they speak of ‘cessation’, its the cessation of these things that this refers to.”
Imesaṃ kho, ānanda, dhammānaṃ nirodho ‘nirodho’ti vuccatī”ti.

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.21/en/sujato
My personal reading of the above sutta is it does not say all form, all feeling, all perception, all formations & all consciousness are dependently originated. Imo, what the sutta says is form, feeling, perception, formations & consciousness that are the subjects of dependent origination, i.e., which are five aggregates subjected to clinging (per MN 28 quoted in the previous post) are dependently originated.

In summary, imo, there are no suttas I can find to support Nargajuna's doctrine that all conditioned things are dependently originated. It appears Nargajuna's synonymous use of the words "saṅkhata" ("conditioned"), "dependently originated" ("paṭiccasamuppanna"), "paticcasummupada" ("dependent origination") & "idappaccayatā" ("conditionality") is not in accordance with how the Lord Buddha used these words.

With metta :smile:
Last edited by DooDoot on Mon Dec 02, 2019 2:22 am, edited 4 times in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
Srilankaputra
Posts: 1059
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:56 am
Location: Sri Lanka

Re: Sutta where the Buddha declares that everything is dependently originated?

Post by Srilankaputra »

https://suttacentral.net/ud1.1/pli/ms
Paṭhamabodhisutta

Yadā have pātubhavanti dhammā,
Ātāpino jhāyato brāhmaṇassa;
Athassa kaṅkhā vapayanti sabbā,
Yato pajānāti sahetudhamman”ti.


When things are manifest
To the ardent meditating brahman
His doubts all vanish, for he knows
That each thing has to have its cause
O seeing one,we for refuge go to thee!
O mighty sage do thou our teacher be!

Paccuppannañca yo dhammaṃ,
Tattha tattha vipassati

“Yato yato mano nivāraye,
Na dukkhameti naṃ tato tato;
Sa sabbato mano nivāraye,
Sa sabbato dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 8610
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Sutta where the Buddha declares that everything is dependently originated?

Post by DooDoot »

Srilankaputra wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 2:12 am
Yato pajānāti sahetudhamman”ti.

That each thing has to have its cause
The above needs to show "hetu" ("cause") means "dependently originated phenomena" ("paṭiccasamuppannā dhamma"). :focus:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
zan
Posts: 984
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 1:57 pm

Re: Sutta where the Buddha declares that everything is dependently originated?

Post by zan »

DooDoot wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 1:49 am
zan wrote: Sun Dec 01, 2019 8:30 pmIs there such a sutta?
I think my previous post is conclusive about how the terms "dependent origination" and "dependently originated" were used by the Lord Buddha. However, to give Nargajuna some hope in this debate, I should post the 1 omitted sutta from the original 11 to examine what it might mean, namely:
#11 wrote:At Sāvatthī.
Sāvatthiyaṃ … ārāme.

Then Venerable Ānanda went up to the Buddha, bowed, sat down to one side, and said to the Buddha:

Atha kho āyasmā ānando yena bhagavā tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā bhagavantaṃ abhivādetvā ekamantaṃ nisīdi. Ekamantaṃ nisinno kho āyasmā ānando bhagavantaṃ etadavoca:

“Sir, they speak of ‘cessation’.
“‘nirodho nirodho’ti, bhante, vuccati.

The cessation of what things does this refer to?”
Katamesānaṃ kho, bhante, dhammānaṃ nirodho ‘nirodho’ti vuccatī”ti?

“Ānanda, form is impermanent, conditioned, dependently originated, liable to end, vanish, fade away, and cease.

“Rūpaṃ kho, ānanda, aniccaṃ saṅkhataṃ paṭiccasamuppannaṃ khayadhammaṃ vayadhammaṃ virāgadhammaṃ nirodhadhammaṃ.

Its cessation is what ‘cessation’ refers to.
Tassa nirodho ‘nirodho’ti vuccati.

Feeling …

Vedanā aniccā saṅkhatā paṭiccasamuppannā khayadhammā vayadhammā virāgadhammā nirodhadhammā.
Tassā nirodho ‘nirodho’ti vuccati.

Perception …
Saññā …

Choices …

saṅkhārā aniccā saṅkhatā paṭiccasamuppannā khayadhammā vayadhammā virāgadhammā nirodhadhammā.
Tesaṃ nirodho ‘nirodho’ti vuccati.

Consciousness is impermanent, conditioned, dependently originated, liable to end, vanish, fade away, and cease.

Viññāṇaṃ aniccaṃ saṅkhataṃ paṭiccasamuppannaṃ khayadhammaṃ vayadhammaṃ virāgadhammaṃ nirodhadhammaṃ.
Its cessation is what ‘cessation’ refers to.

Tassa nirodho ‘nirodho’ti vuccati.

When they speak of ‘cessation’, its the cessation of these things that this refers to.”
Imesaṃ kho, ānanda, dhammānaṃ nirodho ‘nirodho’ti vuccatī”ti.

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.21/en/sujato
My personal reading of the above sutta is it does not say all form, all feeling, all perception, all formations & all consciousness are dependently originated. Imo, what the sutta says is form, feeling, perception, formations & consciousness that are the subjects of dependent origination, i.e., which are five aggregates subjected to clinging (per MN 28 quoted in the previous post) are dependently originated.

In summary, imo, there are no suttas I can find to support Nargajuna's doctrine that all conditioned things are dependently originated. It appears Nargajuna's synonymous use of the words "saṅkhata" ("conditioned"), "dependently originated" ("paṭiccasamuppanna"), "paticcasummupada" ("dependent origination") & "idappaccayatā" ("conditionality") is not in accordance with how the Lord Buddha used these words.

With metta :smile:
Thanks!!!!
I am just a learner. Keep that in mind when you read my words.

Just to be safe, assume all of my words could be incorrect. Look to an arahant for total accuracy and confirmation.
chownah
Posts: 8933
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Sutta where the Buddha declares that everything is dependently originated?

Post by chownah »

Since the six sense fields is dependently originated according to text #1 then it seems to follow that the World (as defined in the Loka suttas) and The All (as defined in The All sutta) are also dependently originated....I guess...don't know for sure....
chownah
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 8610
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Sutta where the Buddha declares that everything is dependently originated?

Post by DooDoot »

chownah wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:32 am Since the six sense fields is dependently originated according to text #1 then it seems to follow that the World (as defined in the Loka suttas) and The All (as defined in The All sutta) are also dependently originated....I guess...don't know for sure....
chownah
Good question.

* In text #1, it seems the six sense fields is dependently originated from ignorance or is a phenomena that can be dependent originated under the influence of ignorance.

* The Loka Sutta (SN 12.44) says the world dependently originates when the six sense fields are subjected to craving.

* The Loka Sutta (SN 12.44) also says the world ceases when the six sense fields are not subject to craving, as follows:
SN 12.44 wrote:And what is the ending of the world? Dependent on the eye & forms there arises eye-consciousness. The meeting of the three is contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. Now, from the remainderless cessation & fading away of that very craving comes the cessation of clinging. From the cessation of clinging comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering. This is the ending of the world.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Therefore, it may be possible The All (the mere sense fields without ignorance & craving) may not be dependently originated.

:shrug:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
Srilankaputra
Posts: 1059
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:56 am
Location: Sri Lanka

Re: Sutta where the Buddha declares that everything is dependently originated?

Post by Srilankaputra »

Srilankaputra wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 2:12 am https://suttacentral.net/ud1.1/pli/ms
Paṭhamabodhisutta

Yadā have pātubhavanti dhammā,
Ātāpino jhāyato brāhmaṇassa;
Athassa kaṅkhā vapayanti sabbā,
Yato pajānāti sahetudhamman”ti.


When things are manifest
To the ardent meditating brahman
His doubts all vanish, for he knows
That each thing has to have its cause
PS: This verse does not refer to Nibbana.
O seeing one,we for refuge go to thee!
O mighty sage do thou our teacher be!

Paccuppannañca yo dhammaṃ,
Tattha tattha vipassati

“Yato yato mano nivāraye,
Na dukkhameti naṃ tato tato;
Sa sabbato mano nivāraye,
Sa sabbato dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.
chownah
Posts: 8933
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Sutta where the Buddha declares that everything is dependently originated?

Post by chownah »

DooDoot wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 7:04 am
chownah wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:32 am Since the six sense fields is dependently originated according to text #1 then it seems to follow that the World (as defined in the Loka suttas) and The All (as defined in The All sutta) are also dependently originated....I guess...don't know for sure....
chownah
Good question.

* In text #1, it seems the six sense fields is dependently originated from ignorance or is a phenomena that can be dependent originated under the influence of ignorance.

* The Loka Sutta (SN 12.44) says the world dependently originates when the six sense fields are subjected to craving.

* The Loka Sutta (SN 12.44) also says the world ceases when the six sense fields are not subject to craving, as follows:
SN 12.44 wrote:And what is the ending of the world? Dependent on the eye & forms there arises eye-consciousness. The meeting of the three is contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. Now, from the remainderless cessation & fading away of that very craving comes the cessation of clinging. From the cessation of clinging comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering. This is the ending of the world.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Therefore, it may be possible The All (the mere sense fields without ignorance & craving) may not be dependently originated.
You present some ideas here but I don't really see how they fit together to add up to a statement that the World or The All are not dependently originated.....maybe you could make your case more explicitly?

As to the red text: Here is a sutta which explicitly says that with the cessation of ignorance comes the cessation of the six sense media:
Ud 1.2 PTS: Ud 2
Bodhi Sutta: The Bodhi Tree (2)
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .irel.html
from the cessation of ignorance, volitional activities cease;
from the cessation of volitional activities, consciousness ceases;
from the cessation of consciousness, name-and-form ceases;
from the cessation of name-and-form, the sixfold base ceases;
Notice that it says when ignorance ceases then the sense media cease....it seems to indicate that ignorance is a necessary precondition for the sense media....it seems to preclude the possibility of the six sense media arising when ignorance has ceased.

Looking at the three suttas called The Bodhi Tree and looking at the suttas about Loka and the sutta about The All (and I could probably dig up some others) I think there is a pretty compelling arguement that the buddha is making a strong case for dependent arising of the six sense media being always dependent on ignorance (i.e. ignorance is a necessary and sufficient condition for the six sense media) and that this then shows that The World and The All are also dependently arisen with initial condition also being ignorance.
chownah
SteRo
Posts: 2954
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:27 am
Location: अ धीः

Re: Sutta where the Buddha declares that everything is dependently originated?

Post by SteRo »

chownah wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:48 am ...
Looking at the three suttas called The Bodhi Tree and looking at the suttas about Loka and the sutta about The All (and I could probably dig up some others) I think there is a pretty compelling arguement that the buddha is making a strong case for dependent arising of the six sense media being always dependent on ignorance (i.e. ignorance is a necessary and sufficient condition for the six sense media) and that this then shows that The World and The All are also dependently arisen with initial condition also being ignorance.
Depends on whether one regards "The World and The All" as seen by the worldling or whether one regards "The World and The All" as seen by an arahant or whether one regards "The World and The All" as seen by one of the other ariyas. Ignorance is abandoned by the arahant exclusively and only partially by the other ariyas. But even the arahant has six sense media ... at least according to worldly measures of observation.
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ
chownah
Posts: 8933
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Sutta where the Buddha declares that everything is dependently originated?

Post by chownah »

SteRo wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 12:42 pm But even the arahant has six sense media ... at least according to worldly measures of observation.
I think the suttas point out a pretty clear equivalency of "worldly" and "ignorance" so I paraphrase this to show more clearly my view of how this happens:
"But even the arahant has six sense media ... at least according to measures of observers in which ignorance has arisen."
chownah
SteRo
Posts: 2954
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:27 am
Location: अ धीः

Re: Sutta where the Buddha declares that everything is dependently originated?

Post by SteRo »

chownah wrote: Tue Dec 03, 2019 2:38 am
SteRo wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 12:42 pm But even the arahant has six sense media ... at least according to worldly measures of observation.
I think the suttas point out a pretty clear equivalency of "worldly" and "ignorance" so I paraphrase this to show more clearly my view of how this happens:
"But even the arahant has six sense media ... at least according to measures of observers in which ignorance has arisen."
chownah
You don't seem to have gotten my words appropriately
Ignorance is abandoned by the arahant exclusively and only partially by the other ariyas
If "worldly" and "ignorance" would be equivalent then a sotapanna would be a worldling. Why? A sotapanna has not abandoned ignorance yet.
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 8610
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Sutta where the Buddha declares that everything is dependently originated?

Post by DooDoot »

chownah wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:48 am As to the red text: Here is a sutta which explicitly says that with the cessation of ignorance comes the cessation of the six sense media:
Ud 1.2 PTS: Ud 2
Bodhi Sutta: The Bodhi Tree (2)
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .irel.html
from the cessation of ignorance, volitional activities cease;
from the cessation of volitional activities, consciousness ceases;
from the cessation of consciousness, name-and-form ceases;
from the cessation of name-and-form, the sixfold base ceases;
Notice that it says when ignorance ceases then the sense media cease....it seems to indicate that ignorance is a necessary precondition for the sense media....it seems to preclude the possibility of the six sense media arising when ignorance has ceased.
It is best to not use a vague text to refute an explicit text. SN 12.44 is an explicit text that says the world ends when craving ends. Ud 1.2 is a vague text that appears to say when ignorance ends, ignorant sense spheres end. Ud 1.2 does not appear to say all sense spheres end but only those sense spheres arising from ignorance. I can support this point of view with many texts, such as Iti 44. Iti 44 clearly says an Arahant has sense spheres. Regards :smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
form
Posts: 1650
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:23 am

Re: Sutta where the Buddha declares that everything is dependently originated?

Post by form »

He said that five aggregates are conditioned. And that includes everything including form that came from old science of the earth, water, fire, air. What else is not within the five aggregates?
Post Reply