Nibbana and samsara are identical. Change my view.

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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: Nibbana and samsara are identical. Change my view.

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta » Sat Nov 30, 2019 12:04 pm

zan wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:18 pm
Nibbana and samsara are identical. Change my view.



How on earth can they be identical?
  • when Samsara is incessantly striding on at full speed, pitifully carrying a full load of recycling garbages
  • while Nibbana is elegantly unmoving, being free from any traces of trash
  • like this: :lol:






Image
.


🅢🅐🅑🅑🅔 🅓🅗🅐🅜🅜🅐 🅐🅝🅐🅣🅣🅐

Self ...
  • "an entirely and perfectly foolish idea" :D ~ MN22

Pulsar
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Re: Nibbana and samsara are identical. Change my view.

Post by Pulsar » Sat Nov 30, 2019 1:26 pm

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta_wrote
How on earth can they be identical?
when Samsara is incessantly striding on at full speed, pitifully carrying a full load of recycling garbages
while Nibbana is elegantly unmoving, being free from any traces of trash
like this: :lol:
You missed the not arising, not ceasing about Nibbana.
SDA, you present a sexy woman carrying colorful trash as samsara, quite the
metaphor. Are you a poet?
I am tempted to check out her trash.
The saintly bride, with roses blooming at her feet, is that a representation of nibbana?
With love :candle:

Pulsar
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Re: Nibbana and samsara are identical. Change my view.

Post by Pulsar » Sat Nov 30, 2019 1:29 pm

OP says
Nibbana and Samsara are identical according to Nagarjuna
but if I
remember right, Nagarjuna somewhere in the same verses says he has no view, or that he holds no position
regarding anything at all.
How did OP come up with a view? Nagarjuna does not appear to have held
any views at all. You ask us to "Change your view" Is this not futile, If N did not have a view
to begin with, regarding nibbana or samsara?
With love :candle:

santa100
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Re: Nibbana and samsara are identical. Change my view.

Post by santa100 » Sat Nov 30, 2019 3:19 pm

zan wrote:Nibbana and samsara are identical. Change my view.
Might want to increase the font to your 2nd sentence below the first sentence in the OP for clarification:
I do not believe this, but want to hear the counters to this idea and this is the least convoluted way.
So basically it's never really been your own view and hence no need to change anything.

Dan74
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Re: Nibbana and samsara are identical. Change my view.

Post by Dan74 » Sat Nov 30, 2019 4:38 pm

From David Loy's essay:
[Nagarjuna's works] refute this thought-constructed distinction between objects and processes by analyzing how that very distinction distorts our understanding of causality, motion, perception, time, and so forth. Nagarjuna’s basic approach is almost always the same: The particular distinction being examined is shown to be incomprehensible, because, having been made, the two different terms no longer fit back together. The basic problem, the source of our suffering, is that our commonsense ways of understanding ourselves as separate from but also in the world assume this delusive distinction.

For example, consider the relationship between the self and its ever-changing mental and physical states (one’s thoughts, emotions, bodily feelings, etc.). Is the self the same as those states, or different from them? We say, “I am hungry or angry, or confused,” which implies that “I” am constantly changing. But we also have a sense of an “I” that persists unchanged: the “I” that works is the same “I” that gets a paycheck at the end of the month. In everyday life we constantly fudge this inconsistency. Sometimes we understand ourselves one way, sometimes the other, but understanding ourselves as things that both change and stay the same is really a contradiction. Nagarjuna’s explanation for the inconsistency is that the self is shunya, “empty.” In modem terms, my sense of self is an impermanent, ever-changing construct.

Nagarjuna also applies his method to Buddhist constructs. What about nirvana? It too is a shunya concept. If nirvana is something causally unconditioned, a reality that does not arise or pass away, then there is no way for us to get there. If it is conditioned, then it too will pass away, like every other conditioned thing. Neither alternative provides spiritual salvation. Letting go of the ways of thinking in which we are normally stuck allows us to experience the world as it really is. This, “the end of conceptual elaborations (prapancha),” is how Nagarjuna refers to nirvana.

Nagarjuna never actually claims, as is sometimes thought, that “samsara is nirvana.” Instead, he says that no difference can be found between them. The koti (limit, boundary) of nirvana is the koti of samsara. They are two different ways of experiencing this world. Nirvana is not another realm or dimension but rather the clarity and peace that arise when our mental turmoil ends, because the objects with which we have been identifying are realized to be shunya. Things have no reality of their own that we can cling to, since they arise and pass away according to conditions. Nor can we cling to this truth. The most famous verse in the Karikas (25:24) sums this up magnificently: “Ultimate serenity is the coming-to-rest of all ways of ‘taking’ things, the repose of named things. No truth has been taught by a Buddha for anyone anywhere.”
http://www.thezensite.com/ZenEssays/Nag ... a_Loy.html
_/|\_

zan
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Re: Nibbana and samsara are identical. Change my view.

Post by zan » Sat Nov 30, 2019 5:38 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Nov 30, 2019 12:04 am
SarathW wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:38 pm
Nibbana and Samsara could be identical if you take Nibbana as an objective reality.
Nibbana = an objective reality
Samsara = an objective reality
Nibbana = Samsara

A frog = an animal
A dog = an animal
A frog = a dog

SarathW breathes
A jellyfish breathes
SarathW is a jellyfish

SarathW eats bananas
Monkeys eat bananas
SarathW is a monkey

:strawman: :strawman: :strawman: :strawman: Four Noble Strawmen
I'm not picking sides here. Sarath may be right, you may be right, I don't have a firm understanding of the issue.

However, I must say, this logic string and imagery...



















:rofl: :lol:

Brightened my day. Well crafted to prove your point and also funny at the same time.
Never read anything I write as an accurate statement about anything whatsoever. First, look to wiser ones than I. Look to wise texts. Unless you can confirm their accuracy from a reliable source, treat my writings like word games, nothing more.

zan
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Re: Nibbana and samsara are identical. Change my view.

Post by zan » Sat Nov 30, 2019 5:43 pm

char101 wrote:
Sat Nov 30, 2019 7:22 am
If Nibanna is samsara then you would already have attained Nibanna.
Excellent point. Please elaborate.
Never read anything I write as an accurate statement about anything whatsoever. First, look to wiser ones than I. Look to wise texts. Unless you can confirm their accuracy from a reliable source, treat my writings like word games, nothing more.

zan
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Re: Nibbana and samsara are identical. Change my view.

Post by zan » Sat Nov 30, 2019 5:44 pm

SarathW wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:38 pm
Nibbana and Samsara could be identical if you take Nibbana as an objective reality.
Thanks. I'll think about this.
Never read anything I write as an accurate statement about anything whatsoever. First, look to wiser ones than I. Look to wise texts. Unless you can confirm their accuracy from a reliable source, treat my writings like word games, nothing more.

zan
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Re: Nibbana and samsara are identical. Change my view.

Post by zan » Sat Nov 30, 2019 5:47 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Nov 30, 2019 4:10 am
pegembara wrote:
Sat Nov 30, 2019 3:58 am
Nibbana and samsara are interdependent or coexistent.
Since Nibbana is unconditioned, how can the above be so? Possibly the Udana verse was misinterpreted. :shrug:
Thank you both for your replies. I'm with DootDoot on this one. Nibbana is the only unconditioned dhamma, so it doesn't depend on anything else.
Never read anything I write as an accurate statement about anything whatsoever. First, look to wiser ones than I. Look to wise texts. Unless you can confirm their accuracy from a reliable source, treat my writings like word games, nothing more.

zan
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Re: Nibbana and samsara are identical. Change my view.

Post by zan » Sat Nov 30, 2019 5:52 pm

santa100 wrote:
Sat Nov 30, 2019 3:19 pm
zan wrote:Nibbana and samsara are identical. Change my view.
Might want to increase the font to your 2nd sentence below the first sentence in the OP for clarification:
I do not believe this, but want to hear the counters to this idea and this is the least convoluted way.
So basically it's never really been your own view and hence no need to change anything.
Oh come one santa, You always give me these amazing responses to my questions. I think this thread would be much for the worse if you refuse to answer it because you don't like the way I posted it. Please share your thoughts on this issue :heart:. It's just a common way to phrase a question to start a discussion. I want to know how people counter this view and this is a really fast, simple and easily digestible way to start the thread.
Last edited by zan on Sat Nov 30, 2019 5:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Never read anything I write as an accurate statement about anything whatsoever. First, look to wiser ones than I. Look to wise texts. Unless you can confirm their accuracy from a reliable source, treat my writings like word games, nothing more.

zan
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Re: Nibbana and samsara are identical. Change my view.

Post by zan » Sat Nov 30, 2019 5:55 pm

Pulsar wrote:
Sat Nov 30, 2019 1:29 pm
OP says
Nibbana and Samsara are identical according to Nagarjuna
but if I
remember right, Nagarjuna somewhere in the same verses says he has no view, or that he holds no position
regarding anything at all.
How did OP come up with a view? Nagarjuna does not appear to have held
any views at all. You ask us to "Change your view" Is this not futile, If N did not have a view
to begin with, regarding nibbana or samsara?
With love :candle:
Thanks but where did I mention Nagarjuna? I'm asking about the view in general, not Nagarjuna's position.
Never read anything I write as an accurate statement about anything whatsoever. First, look to wiser ones than I. Look to wise texts. Unless you can confirm their accuracy from a reliable source, treat my writings like word games, nothing more.

zan
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Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 1:57 pm

Re: Nibbana and samsara are identical. Change my view.

Post by zan » Sat Nov 30, 2019 5:58 pm

SteRo wrote:
Sat Nov 30, 2019 7:19 am
How could the different meanings of two different words be identical?
Thanks. Fair point. I don't know either. This is what I'm trying to wrap my head around by hopefully hearing how people discuss it.
Never read anything I write as an accurate statement about anything whatsoever. First, look to wiser ones than I. Look to wise texts. Unless you can confirm their accuracy from a reliable source, treat my writings like word games, nothing more.

Pulsar
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Re: Nibbana and samsara are identical. Change my view.

Post by Pulsar » Sat Nov 30, 2019 6:07 pm

Zan wrote
Thanks but where did I mention Nagarjuna? I'm asking about the view in general, not Nagarjuna's position.
My bad, I apologize, why did Nagrajuna pop up my mind? I must live in a dreamworld.
So you asked about a view in general? Views result when one sticks to the notion
of a self. Do you stick to the notion of a self? :candle:

Pulsar
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Re: Nibbana and samsara are identical. Change my view.

Post by Pulsar » Sat Nov 30, 2019 9:00 pm

Santa100 wrote
Might want to increase the font to your 2nd sentence below the first sentence in the OP for clarification:
Thanks Santa100, I totally missed the fine print. Now that you point it out, I thank you. I guess the OP posted a trick question.
He said "Change my view" but underneath in almost invisible fine print,
he posted "I don't
believe this", if so what was the point of the post?
He wrote
but want to hear the counters to this idea and this is the least convoluted way
food for thought. :candle:
PS One must always read the fine print, before responding.

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Dhammanando
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Re: Nibbana and samsara are identical. Change my view.

Post by Dhammanando » Sat Nov 30, 2019 9:24 pm

zan wrote:
Sat Nov 30, 2019 5:55 pm
Thanks but where did I mention Nagarjuna? I'm asking about the view in general, not Nagarjuna's position.
But there's no such thing as "the view in general". For different Mahayana teachers and different Mahayana schools the claim that saṃsāra is nirvāṇa has meant all sorts of different things. For some examples see the attached article by George Rupp: The Relationship between Nirvāna and Samsāra - An Essay on the Evolution of Buddhist Ethics.

.
“Keep to your own pastures, bhikkhus, walk in the haunts where your fathers roamed.
If ye thus walk in them, Māra will find no lodgement, Māra will find no foothold.”
— Cakkavattisīhanāda Sutta

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