It is not possible to attain Sotapanna state unless you have practiced Satipathana once at least?

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SarathW
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Re: It is not possible to attain Sotapanna state unless you have practiced Satipathana once at least?

Post by SarathW » Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:29 am

Another important factor in attaining Sotapanna is the Yonisomanasikara. (appropriate attention)
Generally, satipathana is the Yonismanasikara. (right effort and right mindfulness)

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/stu ... tream.html
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

Srilankaputra
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Re: It is not possible to attain Sotapanna state unless you have practiced Satipathana once at least?

Post by Srilankaputra » Tue Jan 07, 2020 12:51 pm

robertk wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:05 am
So, these are relevant questions.
Think - can the intention to kill arise at the very same time as satipatthana ?- No.
And this is because satipatthana is a high level of understanding, mahakusala.
Hi Robert,

Can you explain a bit more about which Cetasikas can arise in conjunction with sati and which can't?
O seeing one,we for refuge go to thee!
O mighty sage do thou our teacher be!

Paccuppannañca yo dhammaṃ,
Tattha tattha vipassati

“Yato yato mano nivāraye,
Na dukkhameti naṃ tato tato;
Sa sabbato mano nivāraye,
Sa sabbato dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

Pulsar
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Re: It is not possible to attain Sotapanna state unless you have practiced Satipathana once at least?

Post by Pulsar » Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:16 pm

Sarathw wrote It is not possible to attain Sotapanna state unless you have practiced Satipathana once at least?
What Kind of Satipatthana is this Ven. thinking of when he says this? Is this the kind based on the introductory Satipatthana suttas? or the suttas based on the Satipatthana Samyutta?
Some practice Satipathana at a crude level meaning mundane, some at a sophisticated level, meaning supra mundane. Latter should be able to attain stream entry, now can anyone of us attain this
level by a first practice?
Well never say never. There is always exception to the rule. The Ven. can bring in past life practice.
Ven. Vijithananda argues that many of us have mixed up the Pramita Dhamma with BodhiPakkhiya Dhamma.
What many of us are practicing is Paramita Dhamma.
How could this be? Even Wikepedia lists BodhiPakkhiya Dhammas correctly.

Now to get to attain stream entry, we all know consistent engagement in 8-fold path is essential.
This Ven. seems to forget Samma Samadhi, that is the 8th step, of the 8-fold path, the four jhanas. In the perfection of Samma Sati i.e. Satipatthana, I would think Samma samadhi is accomplished, and the Bodhipacciaya dhammas, that goes without saying.

Regarding his comment on Paramis, I just read the list, thanks for posting.
================
In the Pāli Canon, the Buddhavaṃsa of the Khuddaka Nikāya lists the ten perfections (dasa pāramiyo) as:[citation needed]

Dāna pāramī : generosity, giving of oneself
Sīla pāramī : virtue, morality, proper conduct
Nekkhamma pāramī : renunciation
Paññā pāramī : transcendental wisdom, insight, discernment
Viriya pāramī : energy, diligence, vigour, effort
Khanti pāramī : patience, tolerance, forbearance, acceptance, endurance
Sacca pāramī : truthfulness, honesty
Adhiṭṭhāna pāramī : determination, resolution
Mettā pāramī : goodwill, friendliness, loving-kindness
Upekkhā pāramī : equanimity, serenity
I am not trying to be picky here, but generally, are not all elements of paramis included in the
very 8-f0ld path? for instance morality, generosity, renunciation, truthfulness, resolution, serenity,
equanimity, etc etc?

What do you think SarathW? Do you agree or not on the last one? You seem to like this Ven. which is fine, but it is a text book case of the "Kalamas". Follow him analytically, discard the ones that do not agree with the main body of Buddha's teaching, use the ones that agree with the teaching.
With Love :candle:
Last edited by Pulsar on Tue Jan 07, 2020 2:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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robertk
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Re: It is not possible to attain Sotapanna state unless you have practiced Satipathana once at least?

Post by robertk » Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:28 pm

Srilankaputra wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 12:51 pm
robertk wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:05 am
So, these are relevant questions.
Think - can the intention to kill arise at the very same time as satipatthana ?- No.
And this is because satipatthana is a high level of understanding, mahakusala.
Hi Robert,

Can you explain a bit more about which Cetasikas can arise in conjunction with sati and which can't?
Hi
you probably already know that there
are:
8 types of citta rooted in lobha, greed, lobha-m¯ula-citta
2 types of citta rooted in aversion, dosa-m¯ula-citta
2 types of citta rooted in ignorance, moha-m¯ula-citta.
So these are akusala citta and obviously no sati can arise with these cittas.

However, as the Patthana( last book of Abhidhamma ) details , immediately after or soon after there can be kusala cittas which take the akusaka as object - and this can be seen in our daily life too.

All kusala cittas actually have sati accompanying them, but the sati of satipatthana is also associateed with wisdom (sam-pajana), and a rather special wisdom as it - to some degree - understands the anattaness of elements. And this too can be confirmed in reality.

There are other cetasikas that also accompany sati - but the critical point, which I think you also know -is that it is all happening by natural processes, That knowledge helps to detach and further see the lack of self.

Srilankaputra
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Location: Sri Lanka

Re: It is not possible to attain Sotapanna state unless you have practiced Satipathana once at least?

Post by Srilankaputra » Tue Jan 07, 2020 2:23 pm

Thank you!
O seeing one,we for refuge go to thee!
O mighty sage do thou our teacher be!

Paccuppannañca yo dhammaṃ,
Tattha tattha vipassati

“Yato yato mano nivāraye,
Na dukkhameti naṃ tato tato;
Sa sabbato mano nivāraye,
Sa sabbato dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

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