It is not possible to attain Sotapanna state unless you have practiced Satipathana once at least?

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SarathW
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It is not possible to attain Sotapanna state unless you have practiced Satipathana once at least?

Post by SarathW »

It is not possible to attain Sotapanna state unless you have practiced Satipathana once at least?
Ven. Vijithananda argues that many of us have mixed up the Pramita Dhamma with BodhiPakkhiya Dhamma.
What many of us are practicing is Paramita Dhamma.

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In the Pāli Canon, the Buddhavaṃsa of the Khuddaka Nikāya lists the ten perfections (dasa pāramiyo) as:[citation needed]

Dāna pāramī : generosity, giving of oneself
Sīla pāramī : virtue, morality, proper conduct
Nekkhamma pāramī : renunciation
Paññā pāramī : transcendental wisdom, insight, discernment
Viriya pāramī : energy, diligence, vigour, effort
Khanti pāramī : patience, tolerance, forbearance, acceptance, endurance
Sacca pāramī : truthfulness, honesty
Adhiṭṭhāna pāramī : determination, resolution
Mettā pāramī : goodwill, friendliness, loving-kindness
Upekkhā pāramī : equanimity, serenity

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C4%81ramit%C4%81

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For instance, the discussions in Dhamma Wheel come under Paramita Dhamma as it only helps you to practice Bodhipakhiya Dhamma in the future.
He also argues that we can practice Bodhipakkhiya Dhamma while you do activities such as listening to a Dhamma talk. Perhaps if you are an experienced Satipathana practitioner you can practice it while you are having discussions in this forum or while you are having your meal!
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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robertk
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Re: It is not possible to attain Sotapanna state unless you have practiced Satipathana once at least?

Post by robertk »

SarathW wrote: Mon Nov 25, 2019 5:57 am Perhaps if you are an experienced Satipathana practitioner you can practice it while you are having discussions in this forum or while you are having your meal!
viewtopic.php?t=15952
Robertk: I believe that satipatthana can arise while eating a tuna sandwich at Belly Sandwich, or even at Subway. It can also arise while sitting in lotus posture in a jungle.
This is because it is a purely mental phenomena, and unlike samatha development, where sound is a thorn, vipassana can be aware of sound or of unpleasant feeling or pleasant taste. ........ This is because "mental and physical activities are no bar to mindfulness"


as the satipatthana sutta says:
in defecating and in urinating, is a person practising clear comprehension; in walking, in standing (in a place), in sitting (in some position), in sleeping, in waking, in speaking and in keeping silence, is a person practising clear comprehension.
SarathW
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Re: It is not possible to attain Sotapanna state unless you have practiced Satipathana once at least?

Post by SarathW »

Thank you Robert.
Yes. It appears you can practice Vipassana with any Kaya sankhara.
Can a person practice Vipassana while having intercourse?
Can a person practice Vipassana while killing an animal?
If not why not?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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robertk
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Re: It is not possible to attain Sotapanna state unless you have practiced Satipathana once at least?

Post by robertk »

SarathW wrote: Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:39 am Thank you Robert.
Yes. It appears you can practice Vipassana with any Kaya sankhara.
Can a person practice Vipassana while having intercourse?
Can a person practice Vipassana while killing an animal?
If not why not?
So, these are relevant questions.
Think - can the intention to kill arise at the very same time as satipatthana ?- No.
And this is because satipatthana is a high level of understanding, mahakusala.

However , could it be that the wish to kill (an animal ) arises and then, subsequently, very quickly satipatthana comes in? Yes it can. And if the sati keeps re-arising then no way that one could carry through and kill.

Note: while it is ok to speak of a person practicing vipassana , it is also good to check. Do we think that somehow there is a person?
Or is this speech merely conventional and one knows that there is no person, there is merely the arising and passing of elements , mental and material.
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Alīno
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Re: It is not possible to attain Sotapanna state unless you have practiced Satipathana once at least?

Post by Alīno »

SarathW wrote: Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:39 am Thank you Robert.
Yes. It appears you can practice Vipassana with any Kaya sankhara.
Can a person practice Vipassana while having intercourse?
Can a person practice Vipassana while killing an animal?
If not why not?
No, because of presence of 5 hindrances. :anjali:
Ajahn Nanadassano (before ordaining) : Venerable Ajahn, what is the bigest error that buddhist do in their practice?
Ajahn Jayasaro : They stop practicing ...
SarathW
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Re: It is not possible to attain Sotapanna state unless you have practiced Satipathana once at least?

Post by SarathW »

Alīno wrote: Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:16 am
SarathW wrote: Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:39 am Thank you Robert.
Yes. It appears you can practice Vipassana with any Kaya sankhara.
Can a person practice Vipassana while having intercourse?
Can a person practice Vipassana while killing an animal?
If not why not?
No, because of presence of 5 hindrances. :anjali:
Good point.
Then what about eating?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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robertk
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Re: It is not possible to attain Sotapanna state unless you have practiced Satipathana once at least?

Post by robertk »

SarathW wrote: Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:22 am
Alīno wrote: Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:16 am
SarathW wrote: Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:39 am Thank you Robert.
Yes. It appears you can practice Vipassana with any Kaya sankhara.
Can a person practice Vipassana while having intercourse?
Can a person practice Vipassana while killing an animal?
If not why not?
No, because of presence of 5 hindrances. :anjali:
Good point.
Then what about eating?
Satipatthana sutta Commentary

5. Clear comprehension in the partaking of food and drink
As to purpose, there is the eightfold purpose referred to with the words, "Not for sport" and so forth in the formula of reflection on the four requisites of a bhikkhu. As such should clear comprehension of purpose be known.

Non-suitable to one is the food by which to that one there is discomfort, whatever the food may be in quality or taste: coarse or fine or bitter or sweet or anything else. Suitable is food that does not cause discomfort.

Just irreversibly non-suitable are these: the food acquired by wrong means of livelihood and the food by which good decreases and evils increase in one who partakes of it. Food which is got by right means and food which does not cause decrease of good and increase of evil in the one taking it are suitable.

In this matter of the partaking of food, clear comprehension of suitability should be understood according to the explanation given above, and the clear comprehension of resort should be understood by way of the non-abandoning of the subject of meditation.

Within there is no eater called a self. As stated already, by the diffusion of the process of oscillation born of mental activity, only, there is the receiving of food in the bowl; by the diffusion of the process of oscillation born of mental activity, only, there is the descent of the hand into the bowl; and by the diffusion of the process of oscillation born of mental activity, only, the making of the food into suitable lumps, the raising of the lumps from the bowl, and the opening of the mouth take place. No one opens the jaws with a key. No one opens the jaws with a contrivance. Just by the diffusion of the process of oscillation born of mental activity, take place the putting of a lump of food in the mouth, the pestle-action of the upper row of teeth, the mortar-work of the lower row of teeth, and the tongue's activity comparable to that of the hand collecting together material that is being crushed. Thus that lump of food in the mouth is mixed together with the thin saliva at the end of the tongue and the thick saliva at the root of the tongue. That food in the mortar of the lower teeth, turned by the tongue, moistened by the saliva, and ground fine by the pestle of the upper teeth is not put into the stomach by anyone with a ladle or a spoon. Just by the process of oscillation it goes on. There is no one within who having made a straw mat is bearing each lump that goes in. Each lump stands by reason of the process of oscillation. There is no one who having put up an oven and lit a fire is cooking each lump standing there. By only the process of caloricity the lump of food matures. There is no one who expels each digested lump with a stick or pole. Just the process of oscillation expels the digested food.

It is oscillation [vayodhatu] that does the taking onward, the moving away from side to side; and it is oscillation that bears, turns round, pulverizes, causes the removal of liquidity, and expels.

Extension [pathavidhatu] also does bearing up, turning round, pulverizing and the removal of liquidity.

Cohesion (apodhatu] moistens and preserves wetness.

Caloricity [tejodhatu] ripens or digests the food that goes in.

Space [akasadhatu] becomes the way for the entering of the food.

Consciousness [viññanadhatu] as a consequence of right kind of action knows in any particular situation.

According to reflection of this sort, should the clear comprehension of non-delusion be understood here.

Taking onward: moving on up to the mouth.

Moving away from side to side: taking forwards from there to the belly.

Again, taking onward = carrying beyond the mouth-aperture.

Moving away from side to side = taking what is going belly-wards, side-wise.

Bears = causes to stand in the stomach.

Turns round = causes to turn back and forth.

Pulverizes = causes the complete powdering as if by a pestle.

Expels = causes the depositing outside the belly.

In regard to the functions of the process of extension, too, the explanation is similar to that which has been already stated.

Indeed, these -- bearing, turning, pulverizing, drying -- the process of oscillation is able to do, only, together with the process of extension. Not singly by itself. Therefore, these -- bearing, turning, pulverizing, the removal of liquidity or drying -- too, are stated by way of the function of the process of extension.

Moistens = makes humid.

Preserves wetness: Just as there is no very great drying by the process of oscillation and so forth, so the process of cohesion preserves wetness by not wetting quite.

The way = the way for entering, turning round, expelling (actually the openings or vacuities which provide the range for such functions).

Process of consciousness = mind-consciousness process, the knowledge in regard to seeking food, swallowing and the like.

In any particular situation = in any function of seeking, swallowing or other similar act.

Right kind of action. The act which even completes a function and becomes a condition for any particular kind of knowledge. That act causes fulfillment of even the knowledge of the scope of that function, by reason of that knowledge not arising without the act.

Knows. Perceives, understands, by way of seeking, by way of full experience of swallowing, by way of the digested, the undigested and so forth.

It should be understood that as knowledge is always preceded by the adverting or the turning of the mind to a thing, knowledge too is included here.

Further, the clear comprehension of non-delusion should be understood through reflection on the unpleasantness connected with food, in the following ten ways: By way of the need to go to get it (1), to seek it (2), the process of eating it (3), by way of the receptacle (in the form of secretion of bile, and so forth) (4), by way of the belly (5), by way of food that is undigested (6), by way of food that is digested (7), by way of the consequences of eating (8), by way of the trickling or oozing of food from the body's openings in the form of excretions (9), and by way of the pollution due to food (10).

The detailed exposition of the contemplation on the unpleasantness connected with food is given in the Path of Purity (and its commentary, The Casket of the Highest Thing, Paramattha Mañjusa).

By way of the need to go for it (food): By way of going towards the alms-village in the sense of wandering for alms. The return journey is also included.

By way of the need to seek it: By way of wandering for alms in the alms-village. Entry into a retiring hall and the like become included in this, naturally.

By way of the process of eating it: By way of taking in the contemptible food comparable to dog's vomit in a dog's food trough, rid of colour and odour just when the tongue turns the food which has been reduced to pulp by the pestles of the teeth.

By way of the receptacle (in the form of excretion of bile, phlegm, pus and blood): Through the food thus taken in becoming the condition for prime contemptibility, by way of the fourfold receptacle placed on the top of the stomach.

What stands, exists, there, in the upper part of the stomach is the staying place, the receptacle.

By way of the food that is undigested: By way of non-preparation of the food in the stomach and the intestines for absorption by the body, through the process of karma-produced caloricity called "the seizer", a supposed organ of the body which functions in digestion, according to Ayurvedic teaching of ancient India.

By way of the food that is digested: Digested through just the karma-produced process of caloricity abovementioned.

By way of the consequences of eating: By way of effect. By way of the business called the bringing about of carcass-products like hair, and diseases, like skin eruptions through the digested and undigested food. This is stated by the commentator as the fruit of food.

By way of the trickling or oozing of food from the body's openings in the form of excretions: By way of the flowing out from eye, ear and several other openings, here and there. For it is said by the Ancients:

Hard eats, soft eats, food and drink superfine,
Get in at one door and get out by nine.
By way of the pollution due to food: By way of the smearing throughout, when eating, of the hands, lips, and other members of that kind, and, after eating, of the nine openings or doors of the body.
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robertk
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Re: It is not possible to attain Sotapanna state unless you have practiced Satipathana once at least?

Post by robertk »

Alīno wrote: Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:16 am
SarathW wrote: Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:39 am Thank you Robert.
Yes. It appears you can practice Vipassana with any Kaya sankhara.
Can a person practice Vipassana while having intercourse?
Can a person practice Vipassana while killing an animal?
If not why not?
No, because of presence of 5 hindrances. :anjali:
The hindrances can be object of satipatthana. Indeed if they arise, they should be the object:
http://www.abhidhamma.org/commentaryDha ... Hindrances
Iti ajjhattam = "Thus internally." In this way the bhikkhu lives contemplating the mental objects, by laying hold of the five hindrances amongst the mental objects of his own mind or amongst the mental objects in another's mind or at one time amongst the mental objects of his own mind, and at another time amongst the mental objects of another's mind.

Here origination and dissolution, only refer to the origination of the five hindrances by way of wrong reflection on sensuously attractive or beautiful objects etc., and the dissolution of the five hindrances by wise reflection on the impurity of the sensuous objects etc.

Here the mindfulness which lays hold of the hindrances is the Truth of Suffering. Thus the portal of deliverance of the bhikkhu who lays hold of the hindrances should be understood.
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Alīno
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Re: It is not possible to attain Sotapanna state unless you have practiced Satipathana once at least?

Post by Alīno »

robertk wrote: Mon Nov 25, 2019 10:59 am
Alīno wrote: Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:16 am
SarathW wrote: Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:39 am Thank you Robert.
Yes. It appears you can practice Vipassana with any Kaya sankhara.
Can a person practice Vipassana while having intercourse?
Can a person practice Vipassana while killing an animal?
If not why not?
No, because of presence of 5 hindrances. :anjali:
The hindrances can be object of satipatthana. Indeed if they arise, they should be the object:
http://www.abhidhamma.org/commentaryDha ... Hindrances
Iti ajjhattam = "Thus internally." In this way the bhikkhu lives contemplating the mental objects, by laying hold of the five hindrances amongst the mental objects of his own mind or amongst the mental objects in another's mind or at one time amongst the mental objects of his own mind, and at another time amongst the mental objects of another's mind.

Here origination and dissolution, only refer to the origination of the five hindrances by way of wrong reflection on sensuously attractive or beautiful objects etc., and the dissolution of the five hindrances by wise reflection on the impurity of the sensuous objects etc.

Here the mindfulness which lays hold of the hindrances is the Truth of Suffering. Thus the portal of deliverance of the bhikkhu who lays hold of the hindrances should be understood.
Hmm! That's right !
But Iam not sure if one citta can be aware of two objects at the same time... So maybe during the citta overcome by hindrance there is no clear vision, but the next one can clearly see : oh! There is hindrance...
I don't know :shrug:
Ajahn Nanadassano (before ordaining) : Venerable Ajahn, what is the bigest error that buddhist do in their practice?
Ajahn Jayasaro : They stop practicing ...
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robertk
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Re: It is not possible to attain Sotapanna state unless you have practiced Satipathana once at least?

Post by robertk »

Alīno wrote: Mon Nov 25, 2019 11:55 am
robertk wrote: Mon Nov 25, 2019 10:59 am
Alīno wrote: Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:16 am

No, because of presence of 5 hindrances. :anjali:
The hindrances can be object of satipatthana. Indeed if they arise, they should be the object:
http://www.abhidhamma.org/commentaryDha ... Hindrances
Iti ajjhattam = "Thus internally." In this way the bhikkhu lives contemplating the mental objects, by laying hold of the five hindrances amongst the mental objects of his own mind or amongst the mental objects in another's mind or at one time amongst the mental objects of his own mind, and at another time amongst the mental objects of another's mind.

Here origination and dissolution, only refer to the origination of the five hindrances by way of wrong reflection on sensuously attractive or beautiful objects etc., and the dissolution of the five hindrances by wise reflection on the impurity of the sensuous objects etc.

Here the mindfulness which lays hold of the hindrances is the Truth of Suffering. Thus the portal of deliverance of the bhikkhu who lays hold of the hindrances should be understood.
Hmm! That's right !
But Iam not sure if one citta can be aware of two objects at the same time... So maybe during the citta overcome by hindrance there is no clear vision, but the next one can clearly see : oh! There is hindrance...
I don't know :shrug:
A vital point! In fact citta can only be aware of one object as you suggest.
So the object , during satipatthana of the hindrances, is one that has just fallen away.
There was akusala and it falls away and is understood- kusala.

This might seem confusing but remember the processes are happening very fast and repeatedly.
The commentaries talk about nimitta of present moment and also navattaba (not so classifiable). A bit complicated.
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Re: It is not possible to attain Sotapanna state unless you have practiced Satipathana once at least?

Post by sentinel »

robertk wrote: Mon Nov 25, 2019 10:59 am
The hindrances can be object of satipatthana. :
Do you mind explaining how the Sloth-and-torpor (thīna-middha) can be object of satipathana in the practice ?

The heaviness of body and dullness of mind which drag one down into disabling inertia and gloominess appear has no mindfulness at all .
You always gain by giving
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Alīno
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Re: It is not possible to attain Sotapanna state unless you have practiced Satipathana once at least?

Post by Alīno »

sentinel wrote: Mon Nov 25, 2019 1:06 pm
robertk wrote: Mon Nov 25, 2019 10:59 am
The hindrances can be object of satipatthana. :
Do you mind explaining how the Sloth-and-torpor (thīna-middha) can be object of satipathana in the practice ?

The heaviness of body and dullness of mind which drag one down into disabling inertia and gloominess appear has no mindfulness at all .
How you can discern that there is "The heaviness of body and dullness of mind which drag one down into disabling inertia and gloominess appear has no mindfulness at all ."?
With sati... ;)
Without sati we couldn't be able to even be aware : there is sloth and torpor.
Ajahn Nanadassano (before ordaining) : Venerable Ajahn, what is the bigest error that buddhist do in their practice?
Ajahn Jayasaro : They stop practicing ...
sentinel
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Re: It is not possible to attain Sotapanna state unless you have practiced Satipathana once at least?

Post by sentinel »

Alīno wrote: Mon Nov 25, 2019 1:13 pm How you can discern that there is "The heaviness of body and dullness of mind which drag one down into disabling inertia and gloominess appear has no mindfulness at all ."?
With sati... ;)
Without sati we couldn't be able to even be aware : there is sloth and torpor.
The person in sleepiness has no mindfulness . Only " after " ! That is if a person already "overcome" the hindrance . Have you ever observe someone whom are in the state of sloth and torpor i.e. grogginess ?
You always gain by giving
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robertk
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Re: It is not possible to attain Sotapanna state unless you have practiced Satipathana once at least?

Post by robertk »

sentinel wrote: Mon Nov 25, 2019 1:06 pm
robertk wrote: Mon Nov 25, 2019 10:59 am
The hindrances can be object of satipatthana. :
Do you mind explaining how the Sloth-and-torpor (thīna-middha) can be object of satipathana in the practice ?

The heaviness of body and dullness of mind which drag one down into disabling inertia and gloominess appear has no mindfulness at all .
These are daily life and have to be understood as they arise, as they persist. They are just as real as happy feelings at the beach, say.

And if mindfulness doesn't arise then that is what is real- so understand that, if only for a split second.

Remember satipatthana is about breaking down the wrong view of self- it is seeing that elements arise by their own conditions, with no controller.

So when unwanted states arise be glad - it all confirms what the Buddha said.
"Bhikkhus, consciousness is not self. Were consciousness self, then this consciousness would not lead to affliction, and one could have it of consciousness: 'Let my consciousness be thus, let my consciousness be not thus.' And since consciousness is not-self, so it leads to affliction, and none can have it of consciousness: 'Let my consciousness be thus, let my consciousness be not thus
. anattalakkhaha sutta.
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robertk
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Re: It is not possible to attain Sotapanna state unless you have practiced Satipathana once at least?

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Regarding the point about sati cognizing the immediately past object

Abhidhammattha sangaha (Anuruddha) translated as A comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma by Bhikkhu Bodhi:
:
Guide (note by Bodhi) p. 136

"although citta experiences objects, citta in turn can become an object. It should be noted that a citta in its immediacy cannot become an its own object, for the cognizer cannot cognize itself; but a citta in an individual mental continuum can experience earlier cittas in that same continuum as well as the cittas of other beings
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