Repeated contemplation of things arising within a container

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zink53
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Repeated contemplation of things arising within a container

Post by zink53 »

A key theme the Buddha repeatedly emphasized was determinations; the absolute truth that all things that arise, arise dependent on other things. Fully discerning this leads to dispassion.

At this very moment, I direct awareness to the visual experience which takes predominance whilst other sense base experiences move peripherally.

What is now the nature of my presently enduring visual experience? The absolute, unquestionable truth is that the currently enduring visual experience has arisen within the container of my body (the eye to be more specific). In fact the experience is fully dependent on the body. It seems outrageous to even entertain the possibility that my visual experience can arise without the container of my body. So if all the pleasant, unpleasant and neutral visual experiences are fully dependent on a container called the body, what is the value of this knowledge? The value lies in the fact that repeated contemplation and correct application of this knowledge enables one to see the Dukkha and Anicca associated with the currently enduring visual experience. It without any doubt confirms that the currently arisen enduring visual experience is completely ‘at the mercy’ of another thing. Being fully dependent on something else, this experience is fully subject to disappearance at any given moment and is completely beyond my control whether I like it or not. In fact, I am completely helpless.

If the presently enduring visual experience, is completely within the container of a body, and is subject to disappearance at any given moment, then why crave for it? Why do I crave for pleasant visual experiences, over and over again, when I seemingly know that it is unownable and utterly beyond my control. It is because I have not fully discerned it.

So what can I do to fully discern this crucial piece of knowledge? It is to repeatedly contemplate this, every single day, whenever I remember to do it.
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DooDoot
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Re: Repeated contemplation of things arising within a container

Post by DooDoot »

zink53 wrote: Sat Nov 23, 2019 8:37 pmA key theme the Buddha repeatedly emphasized was determinations
Hi. The word 'sankhara' in the suttas (together with the word 'dhamma') probably has the largest amount of different meanings. It does not always mean 'determinations'. Also, the English word 'determinations' is a very strange translation. What does the word "determinations" supposed to mean? :shrug:
zink53 wrote: Sat Nov 23, 2019 8:37 pmIf the presently enduring visual experience, is completely within the container of a body, and is subject to disappearance at any given moment, then why crave for it?
Oh... so the cause of dispassion is 'impermanence' rather than "determinations'. This makes more sense. However, I can crave for impermanent things because they recur. For example, I can crave for bananas because I can grow more bananas on trees.
zink53 wrote: Sat Nov 23, 2019 8:37 pmWhy do I crave for pleasant visual experiences, over and over again, when I seemingly know that it is unownable and utterly beyond my control. It is because I have not fully discerned it.
Why? Because i can go to the supermarket and buy more of these impermanent things.
zink53 wrote: Sat Nov 23, 2019 8:37 pmSo what can I do to fully discern this crucial piece of knowledge? It is to repeatedly contemplate this, every single day, whenever I remember to do it.
OK. Thanks. However, it does not appear related to the English word "determinations". :smile:
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SarathW
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Re: Repeated contemplation of things arising within a container

Post by SarathW »

If the presently enduring visual experience, is completely within the container of a body, and is subject to disappearance at any given moment, then why crave for it?
Due to ignorance. Not knowing that there is a better option for happiness than that.
Seen Anicca as Nicca
Seen Dukkha as Sukha
Seen Anatta as Atta
Seen Asubha as Subha
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
JohnK
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Re: Repeated contemplation of things arising within a container

Post by JohnK »

zink53 wrote: Sat Nov 23, 2019 8:37 pm ...
Why do I crave for pleasant visual experiences, over and over again, when I seemingly know that it is unownable and utterly beyond my control. It is because I have not fully discerned it.
Well, it is not utterly beyond control -- you can search for and find the visible forms that are pleasant and experience that pleasantness; if you have the resources, you have more control of your visual surroundings -- hence the gratification that the Buddha points out.
Perhaps what is not fully discerned (or fully felt -- rather than intellectually stated and repeated) is the suffering entailed in the grasping, in the passing of the pleasantness, in the addiction, the stress of needing to feed: the task of the first truth -- comprehending suffering.
So what can I do to fully discern this crucial piece of knowledge? It is to repeatedly contemplate this, every single day, whenever I remember to do it.
Or it might be to feel the more gratifying, harmless pleasantness of non-grasping, concentration, feeling the peace and relief of not grasping (task 2: abandoning the cause of suffering) -- experiencing the difference between the peace of letting go and the tension of grasping. Feeling the escape. Knowing for oneself all three: gratification, danger, AND escape.
EDIT: Welcome to DW, zink53; I hope your time spent here is of benefit.
You will find that, even if you answer all your own questions in your OP, others will offer alternative answers. :)
Those who grasp at perceptions & views wander the internet creating friction. [based on Sn4:9,v.847]
zink53
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Re: Repeated contemplation of things arising within a container

Post by zink53 »

Thank you JohnK for your kind words of welcome and wonderfully articulated reply.
sunnat
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Re: Repeated contemplation of things arising within a container

Post by sunnat »

'Why do I crave for pleasant visual experiences, over and over again, when I seemingly know that it is unownable and utterly beyond my control. It is because I have not fully discerned it.'

'Well, it is not utterly beyond control -- you can search for and find the visible forms that are pleasant and experience that pleasantness;'

Yes and no. It depends on where you are on the path.. As you peel off the layers of sankharas that which seemed to be 'in control' no longer is. Ultimately all 'doing' is sankhara: craving, searching, remembering.. all are caused.

Not fully discerned is right. The discerning, knowing, seeing is the key. It's not intellectual knowing, it is a direct experiential knowing. A detached experiencing without intentionally choosing.
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Alīno
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Re: Repeated contemplation of things arising within a container

Post by Alīno »

zink53 wrote: Sat Nov 23, 2019 8:37 pm
If the presently enduring visual experience, is completely within the container of a body, and is subject to disappearance at any given moment, then why crave for it? Why do I crave for pleasant visual experiences, over and over again, when I seemingly know that it is unownable and utterly beyond my control. It is because I have not fully discerned it.

So what can I do to fully discern this crucial piece of knowledge? It is to repeatedly contemplate this, every single day, whenever I remember to do it.
Hello Zink :anjali:

To understand pleasant and unpleasant feelings we need to reach and develop upekkha (equanimity) quality of mind. Why?
To be able to see and understand that pleasant and unpleasant are of the same nature, that they are almost exactly the same bodily stimulations and only what differentiate them one from another is a "quantity" of that feeling, not the "quality".
For exemple:
- number 1 kilogram and 999 kilograms are of the same nature, but 999 is harder to bear
- if we take a little of sugar it's sweet, but if we take a lot of suggar it becomes bitter
- we are pleased with the day light, but if we look on the Sun directly we can loose our eyes
- the same is for all other senses and object of senses : forms, sounds, smels, tastes, pressure/temperature, mind objects - their quality is of the same nature, but their quantity make them unpleasant, hard to bear, dukkha...

More mind is calm and aware lower the level of pleasantness/unpleasantness is, so simplier, wider and refined becomes the pleasure. That's why good practitioners are so happy people, because their pleasure is very simple and more available. Instead of 100 quantity of stimulation they experianced pleasure with only 10 quantity. For exemple laughing can become "too much" and even become unpleasant and disturbing experience.

As ultimate experiance of dukkha nature of all feelings, if there is conditions, one can reach deep level of Samadhi where all disapears, and while withdraw from it a practitioner will experience the "weight", the burden, the dukkha of this body and all information that comes throught it senses... he may think: "omg, I don't even imagined how havy this body and sensual stimulations are !"

Another way to understand nature of pleasantness and unpleasantness is through wisdom. Throught understanding of anicca dukkha and anatta themselves.
Attachment to all what is impermanent creates dukkha. So when we experience anicca of our body and mind we feel pain.
For exemple:
- when a body is injured we suffer about it
- when someone say something, or when there is thought that undermines and destabilise the image that we have of ourselves - we suffer. This practice involves the attachment to conceit "iam this or iam that". At this level all information that stabilise and reinforces our self image is experianced as pleasant, all what destroys it - unpleasant.

So all experience that make us feel alife - in pleasant, all experianced that make us feel death (physical or mental) - in unpleasant. It's a Bhavatanha - craving for existance.
All what makes us feel light (bodily and mentally - is pleasant, all what makes us feel havy - is unpleasant.

More we take pleasure in pleasant feeling, more we suffer from unpleasant feeling.

To make citta understand feelings practitioner need to calm the mind and take them as object of sati, discerning their anicca, dukkha, anatta nature - again and again.
Ajahn Nanadassano (before ordaining) : Venerable Ajahn, what is the bigest error that buddhist do in their practice?
Ajahn Jayasaro : They stop practicing ...
chownah
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Re: Repeated contemplation of things arising within a container

Post by chownah »

zink53 wrote: Sat Nov 23, 2019 8:37 pm
If the presently enduring visual experience, is completely within the container of a body, and is subject to disappearance at any given moment, then why crave for it? Why do I crave for pleasant visual experiences, over and over again, when I seemingly know that it is unownable and utterly beyond my control. It is because I have not fully discerned it.

So what can I do to fully discern this crucial piece of knowledge? It is to repeatedly contemplate this, every single day, whenever I remember to do it.
You have said that you crave for it because you have not fully discerned it.....seems then that you should do whatever you think will develop your discernment and your idea to repeatedly contemplate this is a good one I think. I think that a good piece of buddhist advise here is to "train only for calm" (as the buddha said I think) as this will help to focus (concentrate) the mind which allows one to eliminate distractions so that one can fully focus on the object one wishes to discern.....also.....you might find that what you first choose to contemplate gives you the result you want but then again it might not....the buddha taught many different ideas and you might find in the buddha's teachings a different kind of approach as to what to contemplate if you find that your original idea doesn't bear fruit.

Edit: ...also....you might find it beneficial to concentrate the mind with meditation and NOT think about this issue because you might find that concentrating the mind without some internal narrative will develop your discernment more quickly and in a more beneficial way.....this is just my idea....you might find it doesn't work for you.
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Pulsar
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Re: Repeated contemplation of things arising within a container

Post by Pulsar »

Zink53 wrote
If the presently enduring visual experience, is completely within the container of a body, and is subject to disappearance at any given moment, then why crave for it? Why do I crave for pleasant visual experiences, over and over again, when I seemingly know that it is unownable and utterly beyond my control. It is because I have not fully discerned it
So what can I do to fully discern this crucial piece of knowledge? It is to repeatedly contemplate this, every single day, whenever I remember to do it."
I love the way you phrased it...the container of the body, linked to a thought world, and in it the unstoppable, inexorable forces of kamma (past deeds) and samsaric habit impulsions constantly
coming into play, to enslave us further on,  
like a dog leashed to a pole, and the dog keeps circling the thing it is bound to? kamma.
We are like puppets on a strings. What strings?
one might say these are the strings of sensual desire, sight, audition, etc
Why are we born to a sensory world? 
because in the past we longed for it, and this happens every moment too,
via the contacts to the sensory world we are constantly being born to.

A contact leading to feeling, accompanied by sannas (signals), determinations i.e. the karmic impulsions (kamma combined with asava may also be called determinations or volitions, or sankharas)
leading to further consolidation of consciousness.
As long as we go on feeding the consciousness, and consolidating it,  there will be no end to its renewed birth and death. It can be witnessed in this very life without us waiting to die, and be relinked to another life, via invisible relinking consciousness.
Already some others have given nice answers.  One who can give the right answer will solve the riddle of, or the suffering of life...In a way you have already answered this.
You said
"It is to repeatedly contemplate this, every single day, whenever I remember to do it."
Buddha offers various methods of meditation on how to do this.
He addressed this issue in his first three sermons.
But what a well thought out statement you made. I hope your stay here turns out to be fruitful.
Welcome to a wonderful gathering of folks interested in the way out of a container called the body and also mind.
PS I just checked your other posts, You have a substantial understanding of Dependent Origination. I enjoyed reading that post, on how avijja creates avijja.
I will be interested in whatever you post from now on. It would be quite an education for me.
Pleased to have you here. Be well! :candle:
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Re: Repeated contemplation of things arising within a container

Post by SteRo »

zink53 wrote: Sat Nov 23, 2019 8:37 pm ... The absolute, unquestionable truth is that the currently enduring visual experience has arisen within the container of my body (the eye to be more specific).
Wow that's a pretty audacious claim.
The habit to grasp as realities the concepts arising from contacting words seems to be deep-rooted.
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robertk
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Re: Repeated contemplation of things arising within a container

Post by robertk »

SteRo wrote: Sun Nov 24, 2019 12:25 pm
zink53 wrote: Sat Nov 23, 2019 8:37 pm ... The absolute, unquestionable truth is that the currently enduring visual experience has arisen within the container of my body (the eye to be more specific).
Wow that's a pretty audacious claim.
Or a reasonably obvious conclusion. And similar to the suttas which say seeing arises at the eyebase.
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Re: Repeated contemplation of things arising within a container

Post by SteRo »

robertk wrote: Sun Nov 24, 2019 1:50 pm
SteRo wrote: Sun Nov 24, 2019 12:25 pm
zink53 wrote: Sat Nov 23, 2019 8:37 pm ... The absolute, unquestionable truth is that the currently enduring visual experience has arisen within the container of my body (the eye to be more specific).
Wow that's a pretty audacious claim.
Or a reasonably obvious conclusion. And similar to the suttas which say seeing arises at the eyebase.
Even though you don't provide a sutta reference I accept your second sentence.

But since you are referring to 'seeing' while the OP refers to 'visual experience' I can't accept the suggestion implied by your first senctence, especially as regards the qualification "absolute, unquestionable truth"


:anjali:
The habit to grasp as realities the concepts arising from contacting words seems to be deep-rooted.
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robertk
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Re: Repeated contemplation of things arising within a container

Post by robertk »

SteRo wrote: Sun Nov 24, 2019 2:02 pm
robertk wrote: Sun Nov 24, 2019 1:50 pm
SteRo wrote: Sun Nov 24, 2019 12:25 pm

Wow that's a pretty audacious claim.
Or a reasonably obvious conclusion. And similar to the suttas which say seeing arises at the eyebase.
Even though you don't provide a sutta reference I accept your second sentence.

But since you are referring to 'seeing' while the OP refers to 'visual experience' I can't accept the suggestion implied by your first senctence, especially as regards the qualification "absolute, unquestionable truth"


:anjali:
for a sutta
https://suttacentral.net/mn148/en/bodhi
iii “‘The six classes of consciousness should be understood. ’ So it was said. And with reference to what was this said? Dependent on the eye and forms, eye-consciousness arises; dependent on the ear and sounds, ear-consciousness arises; dependent on the nose and odours, nose-consciousness arises; dependent on the tongue and flavours, tongue-consciousness arises; dependent on the body and tangibles, body-consciousness arises; dependent on the mind and mind-objects, mind-consciousness arises. So it was with reference to this that it was said: ‘The six classes of consciousness should be understood.’ This is the third set of six
..

as for any difference between seeing consciousness and visible experience, that will be for the op to comment.
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Re: Repeated contemplation of things arising within a container

Post by Pulsar »

RobertK wrote
"as for any difference between seeing consciousness and visible experience, that will be for the op to comment"

Does the OP have to? Isn't it pretty obvious overall in the Pali canon that when Buddha refers to contacts with the sensory sphere, via eye, ear, tongue, tactile surface, and mind
he is talking of visual, auditory, gustatory etc consciousness? the "triple distinguishing" which is the triple determination (of sense organ, object, and corresponding consciousness through contact)
the experiencing of it being the feeling arising thereby. So one could argue for the sake of argument, that they are separate events, seeing consciousness and the the resulting experience, but OP starts off by admitting the dependence nature of events here. OP wrote
"the absolute truth that all things that arise, arise dependent on other things"
OP also wrote
It seems outrageous to even entertain the possibility that my visual experience can arise without the container of my body.
which Pulsar agrees with.
Most important thing in this thread, is to to understand, that one has the power to stop eye consciousness, from progressing on to the next step "having to decide between the 3 kinds of feeling" by successfully neutralizing it, and snapping the cycle of DO right there.
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