Can one equate nibbana to Atta ?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
Alīno
Posts: 688
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:24 pm

Re: Can one equate nibbana to Atta ?

Post by Alīno » Sat Nov 23, 2019 8:59 pm

"There is, bhikkhus, Unborn, Uncreated, Unconditioned. If there wasn't be this Unborn, Uncreated, Unconditioned - it will impossible to get free from what is born, created, conditioned."

As I understand, Nibbana (extingushement, cessation, dispassion, ...) is a result of the awakening to the Unconditioned Dhamma.
But from my opinion the name that people's can give to the Unconditioned is not important, the given name will not change the nature of it. So when it is written somewhere about tge Unconditioned, even if they call it God or Blablabla - no matter - it still the Unconditioned Dhamma. There is no two unconditioned dhammas...

The value of Buddha Dhamma - is not the philosophical aspect (Who?Why?What?Where?...) but the practical aspect (How?). Buddha gave us the Dhamma Wheel the most clear, direct, complete Path of training to realise the Unconditioned.
Buddha wasn't a philosopher he was a practitioner...

So if in some religions they speak about something that have qualities of being Unborn, Uncreated, Unconditioned so we should understand it as Unborn, Uncreated, Unconditioned.

Imho ...
Ajahn Nanadassano (before ordaining) : Venerable Ajahn, what is the bigest error that buddhist do in their practice?
Ajahn Jayasaro : They stop practicing ...

User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 3329
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: Can one equate nibbana to Atta ?

Post by cappuccino » Sat Nov 23, 2019 9:11 pm

Buddhism is unique, there is only this path to Nirvana…

No other, no alternative.

Srilankaputra
Posts: 837
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:56 am
Location: Sri Lanka

Re: Can one equate nibbana to Atta ?

Post by Srilankaputra » Sun Nov 24, 2019 4:59 am

From the Maha upanishad;
A wise person should enquire fully 'What am I?

The blessed one;
"Bhikkhus, you may well acquire that possession that is permanent, everlasting, eternal, not subject to change, and that might endure as long as eternity. But do you see any such possession, bhikkhus?”—“No, venerable sir.”—“Good, bhikkhus. I too do not see any possession that is permanent, everlasting, eternal, not subject to change, and that might endure as long as eternity.

“Bhikkhus, you may well cling to that doctrine of self that would not arouse sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair in one who clings to it. But do you see any such doctrine of self, bhikkhus?”—“No, venerable sir.”—“Good, bhikkhus. I too do not see any doctrine of self that would not arouse sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair in one who clings to it.

“Bhikkhus, you may well take as a support that view that would not arouse sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair in one who takes it as a support. But do you see any such support of views, bhikkhus?”—“No, venerable sir.”—“Good, bhikkhus. I too do not see any support of views that would not arouse sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair in one who takes it as a support.

“Bhikkhus, there being a self, would there be for me what belongs to a self?”—“Yes, venerable sir.”—“Or, there being what belongs to a self, would there be for me a self?”—“Yes, venerable sir.”—“Bhikkhus, since a self and what belongs to a self are not apprehended as true and established, then this standpoint for views, namely, ‘That which is the self is the world; after death I shall be permanent, everlasting, eternal, not subject to change; I shall endure as long as eternity’—would it not be an utterly and completely foolish teaching?”

“What else could it be, venerable sir, but an utterly and completely foolish teaching?”

“Bhikkhus, what do you think? Is material form permanent or impermanent?”—“Impermanent, venerable sir.”—“Is what is impermanent suffering or happiness?”—“Suffering, venerable sir.”—“Is what is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change, fit to be regarded thus: ‘This is mine, this I am, this is my self’?”—“No, venerable sir.”

“Bhikkhus, what do you think? Is feeling… Is perception… Are formations… Is consciousness permanent or impermanent?”—“Impermanent, venerable sir.”—“Is what is impermanent suffering or happiness?”—“Suffering, venerable sir.”—“Is what is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change, fit to be regarded thus: ‘This is mine, this I am, this is my self’?”—“No, venerable sir.”

“Therefore, bhikkhus, any kind of material form whatever, whether past, future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near, all material form should be seen as it actually is with proper wisdom thus: ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.’ Any kind of feeling whatever… Any kind of perception whatever… Any kind of formations whatever … Any kind of consciousness whatever, whether past, future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near, all consciousness should be seen as it actually is with proper wisdom thus: ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.’

“Seeing thus, bhikkhus, a well-taught noble disciple becomes disenchanted with material form, disenchanted with feeling, disenchanted with perception, disenchanted with formations, disenchanted with consciousness.

“Being disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate. Through dispassion his mind is liberated. When it is liberated there comes the knowledge: ‘It is liberated.’ He understands: ‘Birth is destroyed, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more coming to any state of being."
https://suttacentral.net/mn22/en/bodhi
O seeing one,we for refuge go to thee!
O mighty sage do thou our teacher be!

Paccuppannañca yo dhammaṃ,
Tattha tattha vipassati

“Yato yato mano nivāraye,
Na dukkhameti naṃ tato tato;
Sa sabbato mano nivāraye,
Sa sabbato dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

sentinel
Posts: 2543
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: Can one equate nibbana to Atta ?

Post by sentinel » Sun Nov 24, 2019 5:04 am

Is nibbana permanent ?
知人者智,自知者明。胜人有力,自胜者强。知足者富,强行有志。不失其所者久,死而不亡者寿。

chownah
Posts: 8574
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Can one equate nibbana to Atta ?

Post by chownah » Sun Nov 24, 2019 5:26 am

After a fire has gone out it will never exist again.....Is the idea that a fire has gone out permanent?
chownah

sentinel
Posts: 2543
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: Can one equate nibbana to Atta ?

Post by sentinel » Sun Nov 24, 2019 7:06 am

Fire gone out assimilate into the air and space .
知人者智,自知者明。胜人有力,自胜者强。知足者富,强行有志。不失其所者久,死而不亡者寿。

markandeya
Posts: 338
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2018 11:33 am

Re: Can one equate nibbana to Atta ?

Post by markandeya » Sun Nov 24, 2019 7:50 am

I found this a few weeks by Ledi Sayadaw which captures it perfectly. Although without experience or vision into Ultimate reality while still in human existence it will keep baffling people attached to words and intellectual or belief views.

Nibbana~Nirvana is onefold according to its intrinsic nature of peace~ satilakkhana. But according to the way it is experienced it becomes two fold, namely (i) the element of Nibbana with substrata remaining~saupadisesa and (ii) the element of Nibbana without the strata remaining~anupadisesa.

Ledi Sayadaw~ Dhamma on Nibbana

Atta is referring to the conditioned state of ones mind which builds up around the ego based individual self view, the conventional self, is this totally disregarded and done away with and then in grand flash one attains to nibbana and is free from any sense of self/atta.

Ni and bbana ca be separated ni sometimes is translated as without or the absence of, but the reality of ni is that it is transcedent , conscious and awake in its own being. bbana in sanskrit is varna which is four states of being that exists within the mind, which is totally misunderstood by modern intellectual Buddhist as claim it to be part of an external caste system. So what nirvana means is the transcedent person who lives in the waking state supported by the mind and 5 working senses, his varna is ni~transcendent, gradually as mind hits zero state shunya the citta is reprogrammed with quality of ni, which is known only in akash, invisible to the mundane speculators.

So can atta mix with nibbana, this is the reflection one should be doing in the internal dhitti. The final death of the atta is within paranibbana, para signifying the most subtle and absolute.

:anjali:

SteRo
Posts: 591
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:27 am

Re: Can one equate nibbana to Atta ?

Post by SteRo » Sun Nov 24, 2019 8:23 am

sentinel wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 2:20 pm
Ātman , attā or attan in Buddhism is the concept of self . In Thai Theravada Buddhism, for example, states Paul Williams, some modern-era Buddhist scholars have claimed that "nibbana is indeed the true Self" .
Then these "modern-era Buddhist" seem to have adopted a view that could be found already earlier in some Mahayana schools.

confusedlayman
Posts: 520
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am

Re: Can one equate nibbana to Atta ?

Post by confusedlayman » Mon Nov 25, 2019 1:29 am

cappuccino wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 7:17 pm
SarathW wrote: Nibbana itself is not a thing.
No, it's an element.
not a physical element but object of mind?
non-agitation is highest peace
living unaffected by other cause and condition to suffering is true bliss
not associating with stupid people is immediate peace
- CL (confused layman)

User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 3329
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: Can one equate nibbana to Atta ?

Post by cappuccino » Mon Nov 25, 2019 1:34 am

confusedlayman wrote:
cappuccino wrote:
SarathW wrote: Nibbana itself is not a thing.
No, it's an element.
not a physical element but object of mind?
like water

confusedlayman
Posts: 520
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am

Re: Can one equate nibbana to Atta ?

Post by confusedlayman » Mon Nov 25, 2019 1:41 am

sentinel wrote:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 7:06 am
Fire gone out assimilate into the air and space .
it is not even fire while burning how u say fire went in to air and space? when u say fire u see light and heat together (burning) cognised by brain and when u say fire goes out the combo of phenomena fire( heat, light and other conditions) become something else which u can't cognise using ur senses or if u can u can still feel remaining heat
non-agitation is highest peace
living unaffected by other cause and condition to suffering is true bliss
not associating with stupid people is immediate peace
- CL (confused layman)

sentinel
Posts: 2543
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: Can one equate nibbana to Atta ?

Post by sentinel » Mon Nov 25, 2019 4:13 am

confusedlayman wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 1:41 am
it is not even fire while burning how u say fire went in to air and space? when u say fire u see light and heat together (burning) cognised by brain and when u say fire goes out the combo of phenomena fire( heat, light and other conditions) become something else which u can't cognise using ur senses or if u can u can still feel remaining heat
I was simplifying the situation . Without study some science knowledge no one knows exact situation .
知人者智,自知者明。胜人有力,自胜者强。知足者富,强行有志。不失其所者久,死而不亡者寿。

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Aniccato, Bing [Bot], Bundokji, Crazy cloud, Sam Vara, SilaSamadhi and 208 guests