sabbe saṅkhārā aniccā - New interpretation!!!!!!!

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SarathW
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sabbe saṅkhārā aniccā - New interpretation!!!!!!!

Post by SarathW » Fri Nov 22, 2019 9:10 pm

sabbe saṅkhārā aniccā - New interpretation!!!!!!!

In the following video Ven. Vijithanada argues that all three marks of existence are the same thing but with a twist.

-Sankhara are a product of Dhamma
- When Dhamma has taken as Anatta the Sankhara become Anicca (Samsara discontinue) Hence it is Sukkha
- When Dhamma has taken as Atta the Sankhara becomes Nicca (Samsara continues) Hence it is Dukkha


I came to the same conclusion in a different way about six years back. Now I am pleased there is a monk to support my view.

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=18241&p=256672&hilit=


=========================
The three marks are:[7]

sabbe saṅkhārā aniccā — "all saṅkhāras (conditioned things) are impermanent"
sabbe saṅkhārā dukkhā — "all saṅkhāras are unsatisfactory"
sabbe dhammā anattā — "all dharmas (conditioned or unconditioned things) are not self" [8]
In the Mahayana Yogācārabhūmi-Śāstra however, four characteristics are described instead of three: [9]

impermanence (anityākāra),
suffering (duḥkhākāra),
emptiness (*śūnyākāra),
selflessness (anātmākāra).

“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

chownah
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Re: sabbe saṅkhārā aniccā - New interpretation!!!!!!!

Post by chownah » Sat Nov 23, 2019 3:38 am

SarathW wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 9:10 pm
- When Dhamma has taken as Anatta the Sankhara become Anicca (Samsara discontinue) Hence it is Sukkha
- When Dhamma has taken as Atta the Sankhara becomes Nicca (Samsara continues) Hence it is Dukkha
Your english here has a mistake which if one tries to mentally correct it leads to ambiguity.
In english if you say "the dog has taken" it means that in the past the dog took something...... you must provide some word or words which indicate what the dog has taken like "the dog has taken the bone".....so....if you say "dhamma has taken" you must provide a word or words which indicate what it is that dhamma took.
In english if you say "when dhamma IS taken" it means that something took the dhamma....this can seem strange but what it is pointing to is something like "when the dhamma is taken to be xyz by individuals" which means something like "when individuals understand the dhamma to mean xyz".
ANYWAY....are you saying that the dhamma takes something or are you saying that someone understands the dhamma in a certain way? I don't usually offer english lessons but since people have some very different ideas about what dhammas are and how they "work" I think it would be good if you would clarify just what it is you are saying with this.
Hope I'm not seen as being critical....I am just trying to help the discussion.
chownah

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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: sabbe saṅkhārā aniccā - New interpretation!!!!!!!

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta » Sat Nov 23, 2019 4:10 am

chownah wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 3:38 am
SarathW wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 9:10 pm
- When Dhamma has taken as Anatta the Sankhara become Anicca (Samsara discontinue) Hence it is Sukkha
- When Dhamma has taken as Atta the Sankhara becomes Nicca (Samsara continues) Hence it is Dukkha
Your english here has a mistake which if one tries to mentally correct it leads to ambiguity.
In english if you say "the dog has taken" it means that in the past the dog took something...... you must provide some word or words which indicate what the dog has taken like "the dog has taken the bone".....so....if you say "dhamma has taken" you must provide a word or words which indicate what it is that dhamma took.
In english if you say "when dhamma IS taken" it means that something took the dhamma....this can seem strange but what it is pointing to is something like "when the dhamma is taken to be xyz by individuals" which means something like "when individuals understand the dhamma to mean xyz".
ANYWAY....are you saying that the dhamma takes something or are you saying that someone understands the dhamma in a certain way? I don't usually offer english lessons but since people have some very different ideas about what dhammas are and how they "work" I think it would be good if you would clarify just what it is you are saying with this.
Hope I'm not seen as being critical....I am just trying to help the discussion.
chownah
I read "Dhamma has taken" as "Dhamma is taken". And yet, I can't quite grasp the meaning behind the "Dhamma": Dhamma/dhammas/...etc.

:heart:
.


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char101
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Re: sabbe saṅkhārā aniccā - New interpretation!!!!!!!

Post by char101 » Sat Nov 23, 2019 4:30 am

Sankhara are the 5 khandhas. The 5 khandhas are product of kamma. Unaware of the existence of the 5 khandhas, people take a being as atta. Just knowing there are 5 khandhas is not enough to eliminate the view of atta, one must see it oneself via panna. Being able to see the 5 khandhas, one learn about it's characteristic of impermanence, undesirable, and not self. Dhamma is just a term that means everything.

SarathW
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Re: sabbe saṅkhārā aniccā - New interpretation!!!!!!!

Post by SarathW » Sat Nov 23, 2019 6:02 am

chownah wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 3:38 am
SarathW wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 9:10 pm
- When Dhamma has taken as Anatta the Sankhara become Anicca (Samsara discontinue) Hence it is Sukkha
- When Dhamma has taken as Atta the Sankhara becomes Nicca (Samsara continues) Hence it is Dukkha
Your english here has a mistake which if one tries to mentally correct it leads to ambiguity.
In english if you say "the dog has taken" it means that in the past the dog took something...... you must provide some word or words which indicate what the dog has taken like "the dog has taken the bone".....so....if you say "dhamma has taken" you must provide a word or words which indicate what it is that dhamma took.
In english if you say "when dhamma IS taken" it means that something took the dhamma....this can seem strange but what it is pointing to is something like "when the dhamma is taken to be xyz by individuals" which means something like "when individuals understand the dhamma to mean xyz".
ANYWAY....are you saying that the dhamma takes something or are you saying that someone understands the dhamma in a certain way? I don't usually offer english lessons but since people have some very different ideas about what dhammas are and how they "work" I think it would be good if you would clarify just what it is you are saying with this.
Hope I'm not seen as being critical....I am just trying to help the discussion.
chownah
Thanks. How about if I put it this way?

-Sankhara are a product of Dhamma
- When a person takes Dhamma as Anatta the Sankhara becomes Anicca (Samsara discontinue) Hence it is Sukkha
- When a person takes Dhamma as Atta the Sankhara becomes Nicca (Samsara continues) Hence it is Dukkha
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

SarathW
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Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: sabbe saṅkhārā aniccā - New interpretation!!!!!!!

Post by SarathW » Sat Nov 23, 2019 6:08 am

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 4:10 am
chownah wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 3:38 am
SarathW wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 9:10 pm
- When Dhamma has taken as Anatta the Sankhara become Anicca (Samsara discontinue) Hence it is Sukkha
- When Dhamma has taken as Atta the Sankhara becomes Nicca (Samsara continues) Hence it is Dukkha
Your english here has a mistake which if one tries to mentally correct it leads to ambiguity.
In english if you say "the dog has taken" it means that in the past the dog took something...... you must provide some word or words which indicate what the dog has taken like "the dog has taken the bone".....so....if you say "dhamma has taken" you must provide a word or words which indicate what it is that dhamma took.
In english if you say "when dhamma IS taken" it means that something took the dhamma....this can seem strange but what it is pointing to is something like "when the dhamma is taken to be xyz by individuals" which means something like "when individuals understand the dhamma to mean xyz".
ANYWAY....are you saying that the dhamma takes something or are you saying that someone understands the dhamma in a certain way? I don't usually offer english lessons but since people have some very different ideas about what dhammas are and how they "work" I think it would be good if you would clarify just what it is you are saying with this.
Hope I'm not seen as being critical....I am just trying to help the discussion.
chownah
I read "Dhamma has taken" as "Dhamma is taken". And yet, I can't quite grasp the meaning behind the "Dhamma": Dhamma/dhammas/...etc.

:heart:
Why we continue in Samasara is due to the fact that taking dhamma as Atta.
Have you read my other post?
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=18241&p=256672&hilit=
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: sabbe saṅkhārā aniccā - New interpretation!!!!!!!

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta » Sat Nov 23, 2019 6:41 am

SarathW wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 6:08 am
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 4:10 am
chownah wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 3:38 am

Your english here has a mistake which if one tries to mentally correct it leads to ambiguity.
In english if you say "the dog has taken" it means that in the past the dog took something...... you must provide some word or words which indicate what the dog has taken like "the dog has taken the bone".....so....if you say "dhamma has taken" you must provide a word or words which indicate what it is that dhamma took.
In english if you say "when dhamma IS taken" it means that something took the dhamma....this can seem strange but what it is pointing to is something like "when the dhamma is taken to be xyz by individuals" which means something like "when individuals understand the dhamma to mean xyz".
ANYWAY....are you saying that the dhamma takes something or are you saying that someone understands the dhamma in a certain way? I don't usually offer english lessons but since people have some very different ideas about what dhammas are and how they "work" I think it would be good if you would clarify just what it is you are saying with this.
Hope I'm not seen as being critical....I am just trying to help the discussion.
chownah
I read "Dhamma has taken" as "Dhamma is taken". And yet, I can't quite grasp the meaning behind the "Dhamma": Dhamma/dhammas/...etc.

:heart:
Why we continue in Samasara is due to the fact that taking dhamma as Atta.
Have you read my other post?
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=18241&p=256672&hilit=

Interesting post:

btw, I love this:
Why we continue in Samasara is due to the fact that taking dhamma as Atta.
:heart:
.


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  • "an entirely and perfectly foolish idea" :D ~ MN22

SarathW
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Re: sabbe saṅkhārā aniccā - New interpretation!!!!!!!

Post by SarathW » Sat Nov 23, 2019 6:43 am

Interesting post:
I am glad you understood my message.
:anjali:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: sabbe saṅkhārā aniccā - New interpretation!!!!!!!

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta » Sat Nov 23, 2019 7:03 am

SarathW wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 6:43 am
Interesting post:
I am glad you understood my message.
:anjali:
I think I somewhat understand.

And, My interpretation of the sentence
Why we continue in Samasara is due to the fact that taking dhamma as Atta.
is:
  • When not taking dhamma as Atta, without reservation, ending of samsara is guaranteed (instantly or sooner or later).
:heart:
.


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  • "an entirely and perfectly foolish idea" :D ~ MN22

sentinel
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Re: sabbe saṅkhārā aniccā - New interpretation!!!!!!!

Post by sentinel » Sat Nov 23, 2019 7:10 am

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 7:03 am
  • When not taking dhamma as Atta, without reservation, ending of samsara is guaranteed (instantly or sooner or later).
:heart:
but how to take it as not atta ?
知人者智,自知者明。胜人有力,自胜者强。知足者富,强行有志。不失其所者久,死而不亡者寿。

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Re: sabbe saṅkhārā aniccā - New interpretation!!!!!!!

Post by retrofuturist » Sat Nov 23, 2019 7:19 am

Greetings,
SarathW wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 6:02 am
- When a person takes Dhamma as Atta the Sankhara becomes Nicca (Samsara continues) Hence it is Dukkha
This is just plain wrong. No sankhara is permanent.

Again, maybe it's just the wording and mode of expression that is the problem, but as written, the notion of any sankhara being nicca is nonsense, and directly opposed by the suttas.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: sabbe saṅkhārā aniccā - New interpretation!!!!!!!

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta » Sat Nov 23, 2019 7:38 am

sentinel wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 7:10 am
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 7:03 am
  • When not taking dhamma as Atta, without reservation, ending of samsara is guaranteed (instantly or sooner or later).
:heart:
but how to take it as not atta ?

  • this is not mine
  • this I am not
  • this is not my self
:heart:
.


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Self ...
  • "an entirely and perfectly foolish idea" :D ~ MN22

SarathW
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Re: sabbe saṅkhārā aniccā - New interpretation!!!!!!!

Post by SarathW » Sat Nov 23, 2019 8:34 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 7:19 am
Greetings,
SarathW wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 6:02 am
- When a person takes Dhamma as Atta the Sankhara becomes Nicca (Samsara continues) Hence it is Dukkha
This is just plain wrong. No sankhara is permanent.

Again, maybe it's just the wording and mode of expression that is the problem, but as written, the notion of any sankhara being nicca is nonsense, and directly opposed by the suttas.

Metta,
Paul. :)
I understand your concerns.
It is clearly said "Sabbe Sankhara Anicca"
I am not sure whether Ven. Vijithananda is saying that Samsara is Nicca.
Even though Sankhara is Anicca they repeat itself hence Nicca.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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