Are thirty-seven enlightenment factors in a particular order?

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SarathW
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Are thirty-seven enlightenment factors in a particular order?

Post by SarathW » Mon Nov 18, 2019 6:53 am

Are thirty-seven enlightenment factors in a particular order?

Can someone provide the Sutta reference for 37 enlightenment factors?
Ven. Vijithananda argues that it is in a particular order.


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DooDoot
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Re: Are thirty-seven enlightenment factors in a particular order?

Post by DooDoot » Mon Nov 18, 2019 6:58 am

In this community of monks there are monks who remain devoted to the development of the four frames of reference... the four right exertions... the four bases of power... the five faculties... the five strengths... the seven factors for awakening... the noble eightfold path: such are the monks in this community of monks...

MN 118

Also: https://suttacentral.net/an7.71/en/sujato
And: https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
It appears the order above is based on the numbers, i.e., the 4s, then 5s, then 7 then 8. 'Numerology'.

:smile:
Last edited by DooDoot on Mon Nov 18, 2019 7:12 am, edited 2 times in total.
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SarathW
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Re: Are thirty-seven enlightenment factors in a particular order?

Post by SarathW » Mon Nov 18, 2019 7:10 am

Thanks, DD.
It appears the order given in Dhamma Wiki is incorrect.

https://dhammawiki.com/index.php/37_fac ... ightenment

Now, what is your thought on this claim by Ven. Vijithananda?
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DooDoot
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Re: Are thirty-seven enlightenment factors in a particular order?

Post by DooDoot » Mon Nov 18, 2019 7:18 am

SarathW wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 7:10 am
Now, what is your thought on this claim by Ven. Vijithananda?
Looks like, merely guessing:

1st, they are in numerical order, namely: 4s, 5s, 7s & 8s.

2nd, they are in the order as they appear in the Samyutta Nikaya, namely: 1. satipatthana, 2. efforts, 3. powers and 1. faculties, 2. strengths.

:smile:
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There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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sentinel
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Re: Are thirty-seven enlightenment factors in a particular order?

Post by sentinel » Mon Nov 18, 2019 7:27 am

The order appear to portray a path with branches or limbs . Theoretically it presents us with a comprehensive wholistic view point .
:coffee:

SarathW
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Re: Are thirty-seven enlightenment factors in a particular order?

Post by SarathW » Mon Nov 18, 2019 9:18 am

Does this mean Noble Eightfold Path is not the complete path?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

santa100
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Re: Are thirty-seven enlightenment factors in a particular order?

Post by santa100 » Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:53 pm

SarathW wrote:Does this mean Noble Eightfold Path is not the complete path?
The 8FNP is a complete set. So instead of seeing the 37 Aids as separate distinct components to a larger set, they're more like the Mandelbrot set where the part is within the whole and the whole is also within the part.

SarathW
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Re: Are thirty-seven enlightenment factors in a particular order?

Post by SarathW » Mon Nov 18, 2019 7:31 pm

Yes, I agree with it.
This is something very unique in Buddhas' teaching.
Perhaps our whole conditional existence is based on this.
Is there any other teaching who used by this method?
When we faced this reality, it is difficult to say which is the starting point or where it ends.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

SarathW
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Re: Are thirty-seven enlightenment factors in a particular order?

Post by SarathW » Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:55 pm

In the following video on the Sinhalese language Ven. Vijithananda explains how 37 factors as a gradually developed.
This is pretty incredible and I have never heard this before so clearly!
The message here is that you become a Sotapanna only when you accomplish these 37 factors even though he is reluctant to talk about the division of Sotapanna etc. It is impossible to become a Sotapanna unless at least you practice Satipathhana which is the first set of 37 factors.
I will give a summary of this video when I listen to it again.

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Alīno
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Re: Are thirty-seven enlightenment factors in a particular order?

Post by Alīno » Thu Nov 21, 2019 8:28 pm

The Path is not linear and strictly gradual, but interdependent and spiral...

For exemple someone with strong wisdom faculty will need just a little concentration to penetrate Dhamma.
Someone with strong concentration will need just a little wisdom to penetrate Dhamma.

By developing sila we develop our strenght, so we can hit the tree with more impact, also we can avoid bad weather and not waste our time at home but staying here and cutting the tree. With good strenght, importance of sharp axe and hardness of wood are demineshed. (In russian language "sīla" literally means "strenght")
By developing concentration we weaken the wood, so the axe no need to be too sharp to cut the tree.
By developing wisdom we sharpen our axe so the wood can be strong, it will cut the tree.

So I have conviction that each set of 37 aids, factors are interdependent and support each other.
Also I don't see that : we cannot develop one factor if the precedent is not fully developed yet. But I see that they work together and need each other.
Last edited by Alīno on Thu Nov 21, 2019 8:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Ajahn Nanadassano (before ordaining) : Venerable Ajahn, what is the bigest error that buddhist do in their practice?
Ajahn Jayasaro : They stop practicing ...

SarathW
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Re: Are thirty-seven enlightenment factors in a particular order?

Post by SarathW » Thu Nov 21, 2019 8:46 pm

:goodpost: Alino
But the question is those factors are in the teaching of other religions too. How Buddhism make it different?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Alīno
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Re: Are thirty-seven enlightenment factors in a particular order?

Post by Alīno » Thu Nov 21, 2019 8:58 pm

SarathW wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 8:46 pm
:goodpost: Alino
But the question is those factors are in the teaching of other religions too. How Buddhism make it different?
Right View and Right Intention are the key factors I think.

But as Buddha said if there is N8P there is Aryans, so i have conviction that one person can be of another tradition but by practicing N8P penetrate the Dhamma.

So for me it's not matter of religion, but matter of practice. And I will feel closer to some Muslim or Christian or Hindu who practice N8P, rather to some true Buddhist who don't practice N8P...

Imho
Ajahn Nanadassano (before ordaining) : Venerable Ajahn, what is the bigest error that buddhist do in their practice?
Ajahn Jayasaro : They stop practicing ...

SarathW
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Re: Are thirty-seven enlightenment factors in a particular order?

Post by SarathW » Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:21 pm

So for me it's not matter of religion, but matter of practice. And I will feel closer to some Muslim or Christian or Hindu who practice N8P, rather to some true Buddhist who don't practice N8P...
I have never come across a Muslim, Christian or Hindu who practices Noble Eightfold Path!
Perhaps you find some of them follow the Eightfold Path but not the Noble Eightfold Path.
All these religions have self-view. However, this is another topic for discussion. Please feel free to create a new topic.
It is important to note that you should have the foundation before you build the roof.
Hence there is an order to progress in Nibbana as well.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Alīno
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Re: Are thirty-seven enlightenment factors in a particular order?

Post by Alīno » Fri Nov 22, 2019 3:43 am

SarathW wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:21 pm
So for me it's not matter of religion, but matter of practice. And I will feel closer to some Muslim or Christian or Hindu who practice N8P, rather to some true Buddhist who don't practice N8P...
I have never come across a Muslim, Christian or Hindu who practices Noble Eightfold Path!
Perhaps you find some of them follow the Eightfold Path but not the Noble Eightfold Path.
All these religions have self-view. However, this is another topic for discussion. Please feel free to create a new topic.
It is important to note that you should have the foundation before you build the roof.
Hence there is an order to progress in Nibbana as well.
I think that it's not uncommon for religious people to:
- belief that there is this world and the next, there is mother father, there is results of good and bad deeds (wordly Right View)
- intention of renounciation, non greed, non hatred, non ill will (Right Intention)
- Right Speach, Action, Livelihood
- Right Sati (body, feelings, mind and mind objects are impermanent unsatisfactory and not me, mine, miself)
- Right Concentration (through some mantra of Brahmaviharas)

Why?
Because it's a way of Truth, and if someone is born here or there, he still able to be intent on Truth and penetrate the true nature of things. Paccekabuddhas is a registered phenomena in Canon.

I don't want to convince nobody I my opinion, just saying that N8P it's not matter of religion, but a matter of practice.
Ajahn Nanadassano (before ordaining) : Venerable Ajahn, what is the bigest error that buddhist do in their practice?
Ajahn Jayasaro : They stop practicing ...

SarathW
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Re: Are thirty-seven enlightenment factors in a particular order?

Post by SarathW » Fri Nov 22, 2019 3:50 am

just saying that N8P it's not matter of religion, but a matter of practice.

Agree.
What matters is not the lable.
However if a person has not gone to the refuge (faith) of Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha it is not possible to accept the person is following the Noble Eightfold Path. Muslims, Christians and Hindus etc do not have the faith in Buddha so it is impossible for them to follow Noble Eightfold Path. If a person follow the Noble Eightfold Path, s/he will be considered a Buddhist.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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